At 18:30 you talk about us having 24% equaty and we need 23% which is fine, but Our hand is tainted With reverse implied odds. Look at all the bigger aces in his range, and if we hit a 4 it is very hard to get to showdown against an agressive opponents.
Hi Ruben, thanks for the question. I completely understand your line of thinking here and this is exactly how I used to see this hand before I got more involved in studying post flop play on a deeper level.
I want to discuss a term that many out there haven't heard of called minimum defense frequency (MDF). This is a very important concept because it's the mathematical value of how often we should theoretically be continuing to against a bet size (whether its by calling or raising) so that we are not being exploited by our opponent in a given situation. The formula for finding the MDF is 1-(bet size/total pot size after the bet). In the example from this hand our MDF would equal 1-(600/600+1395) or .70 which means in this specific hand we should be continuing with 70% of our range in order to not be exploited by the villains bet sizing. It's important to note that this is a theoretical value so in many situations it will be quite difficult to actually reach this in any given hand, but we should consider this as a threshold that we would like to get close to when thinking about what % of our range wants to continue in a certain spot. So if 70% of our range wants to continue in this spot and we have 24% equity against the range we assigned to our opponent and only need 23% to make this a correct call on the flop, then we absolutely should be including this hand in our defense strategy on this board.
The fact that we have the nut backdoor flush draw as well as potentially an overcard to the board against a very aggressive opponent means that on certain run outs we will be able to apply pressure given his very low likelihood of having a flush based on his range when the board does run out with another diamond. We also have the potential to win the hand when he check/ gives up on later streets given the fact that this board actually smashes the range of hands we would likely be defending with against a 3 bet including all the broadway hands, so he should be proceeding with caution on later streets once we do call a flop bet. There certainly will be turn cards that we won't be able to continue against further betting, but that doesn't mean calling on the flop isn't the optimal play.
I know I didn't explain this concept in the video, mainly because its a fairly advanced concept that probably would require at least an entire video focused solely on it, but I hope this explanation makes sense and will help you look at post flop decisions a little differently in the future. I will likely put together a video on this topic soon, as it is very important to grasp and it is far different than most players approach defending ranges.
Like the video but your explanation in some hands is definitely not how to play these lower stake games. Raising to 1200 with 44 in the BB 35BBs deep with 2 recreational players is burning $$$/chips. There is just no need to make plays like this at these lower buy ins. You can just wait for easy spots to chip up, this is an $11 game. Making plays like that and calling 2.5X 3 bets with A4 (and advising to continue to C bets against a guy who is quite clearly banging his head off his keyboard is completely unnecessary!! Your explanation of why calling his C bet is good and makes tonnes of sense but it needs to be against a thinking player and he is quite clearly not one of them! Playing your approach is ofc still going to be profitable but an ABC approach here is going to be so much more profitable!
You are obviously a class poker player but this is not an approach for lower buy ins at early stages. These strategies could be implemented later if (and that's a big if in the Big$11) you find a tough table.
There isn't a better play than checking the BB with 44. Playing the hand 4-way in a good result. You are too deep to shove and you don't want to raise it OOP.
This is a situation where I would be happy to raise large and get the pot to heads up if possible, but I understand that perhaps at these stakes this play won't work quite as well given the tendencies of these players. I do sometimes find myself wanting to take the approach I would take against very skilled players against recreational players out of habit, and I agree that maybe this isn't the best course of action. We have to make adjustments when we play at different stakes, even if this leads to us taking what could be a sub optimal line against the general population, because player tendencies are so much different when playing at different stakes. Thanks for the feedback, and I will consider this a lot more in the future when dealing with approaching these lower stakes.
I meant that you are getting good odds to set mine 4-way, and the small pp doesn't play that well postflop HU OOP. If you raise and get a multiway pot, that is actually not a bad result, as you get better immediate odds to hit your set, and you can offen take it down on an A or K high flop that you miss. At lower stakes, there is more advantage in set mining deeper, as you are more likely to get paid off big if you hit.
Good question, when I have under 20bbs I generally like to make my open sizing smaller to risk less of my stack with my raise folds and prefer 2x-2.2x, I also think that since our range is stronger when raising with this stack size its ok to go smaller despite the fact that it may entice the bb to defend at a higher frequency.
If we do choose to raise here we need to use a sizing that will hopefully get the pot heads up since our hand doesn't do particularly well post flop. Our sizing should be around 5x-6x and if we raise to this size we are committed to calling the 2nd limpers shove but certainly would fold to the original limper if he shoved.
Great video series! Just curious do you ever just flat with a monster hands preflop. Every decent hand in the video you are raising with pre. Maybe you aren't showing the big hands you limp with, or on a site like ACR it makes sense to always raise and not worry about your opponents knowing if you just call pre, you never have a huge hand?
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At 18:30 you talk about us having 24% equaty and we need 23% which is fine, but Our hand is tainted With reverse implied odds. Look at all the bigger aces in his range, and if we hit a 4 it is very hard to get to showdown against an agressive opponents.
Hi Ruben, thanks for the question. I completely understand your line of thinking here and this is exactly how I used to see this hand before I got more involved in studying post flop play on a deeper level.
I want to discuss a term that many out there haven't heard of called minimum defense frequency (MDF). This is a very important concept because it's the mathematical value of how often we should theoretically be continuing to against a bet size (whether its by calling or raising) so that we are not being exploited by our opponent in a given situation. The formula for finding the MDF is 1-(bet size/total pot size after the bet). In the example from this hand our MDF would equal 1-(600/600+1395) or .70 which means in this specific hand we should be continuing with 70% of our range in order to not be exploited by the villains bet sizing. It's important to note that this is a theoretical value so in many situations it will be quite difficult to actually reach this in any given hand, but we should consider this as a threshold that we would like to get close to when thinking about what % of our range wants to continue in a certain spot. So if 70% of our range wants to continue in this spot and we have 24% equity against the range we assigned to our opponent and only need 23% to make this a correct call on the flop, then we absolutely should be including this hand in our defense strategy on this board.
The fact that we have the nut backdoor flush draw as well as potentially an overcard to the board against a very aggressive opponent means that on certain run outs we will be able to apply pressure given his very low likelihood of having a flush based on his range when the board does run out with another diamond. We also have the potential to win the hand when he check/ gives up on later streets given the fact that this board actually smashes the range of hands we would likely be defending with against a 3 bet including all the broadway hands, so he should be proceeding with caution on later streets once we do call a flop bet. There certainly will be turn cards that we won't be able to continue against further betting, but that doesn't mean calling on the flop isn't the optimal play.
I know I didn't explain this concept in the video, mainly because its a fairly advanced concept that probably would require at least an entire video focused solely on it, but I hope this explanation makes sense and will help you look at post flop decisions a little differently in the future. I will likely put together a video on this topic soon, as it is very important to grasp and it is far different than most players approach defending ranges.
Like the video but your explanation in some hands is definitely not how to play these lower stake games. Raising to 1200 with 44 in the BB 35BBs deep with 2 recreational players is burning $$$/chips. There is just no need to make plays like this at these lower buy ins. You can just wait for easy spots to chip up, this is an $11 game. Making plays like that and calling 2.5X 3 bets with A4 (and advising to continue to C bets against a guy who is quite clearly banging his head off his keyboard is completely unnecessary!! Your explanation of why calling his C bet is good and makes tonnes of sense but it needs to be against a thinking player and he is quite clearly not one of them! Playing your approach is ofc still going to be profitable but an ABC approach here is going to be so much more profitable!
You are obviously a class poker player but this is not an approach for lower buy ins at early stages. These strategies could be implemented later if (and that's a big if in the Big$11) you find a tough table.
Reviews*
There isn't a better play than checking the BB with 44. Playing the hand 4-way in a good result. You are too deep to shove and you don't want to raise it OOP.
This is a situation where I would be happy to raise large and get the pot to heads up if possible, but I understand that perhaps at these stakes this play won't work quite as well given the tendencies of these players. I do sometimes find myself wanting to take the approach I would take against very skilled players against recreational players out of habit, and I agree that maybe this isn't the best course of action. We have to make adjustments when we play at different stakes, even if this leads to us taking what could be a sub optimal line against the general population, because player tendencies are so much different when playing at different stakes. Thanks for the feedback, and I will consider this a lot more in the future when dealing with approaching these lower stakes.
I meant that you are getting good odds to set mine 4-way, and the small pp doesn't play that well postflop HU OOP. If you raise and get a multiway pot, that is actually not a bad result, as you get better immediate odds to hit your set, and you can offen take it down on an A or K high flop that you miss. At lower stakes, there is more advantage in set mining deeper, as you are more likely to get paid off big if you hit.
Very good Video & analysis...thanks Jeremy...
Hi Jeremy,
can you talk about opening sizing. At 26:20 we have 17bb and 2.5x utg, would you advocate going 2.5x or just 2 / 2.1bb
Jake
Good question, when I have under 20bbs I generally like to make my open sizing smaller to risk less of my stack with my raise folds and prefer 2x-2.2x, I also think that since our range is stronger when raising with this stack size its ok to go smaller despite the fact that it may entice the bb to defend at a higher frequency.
At 27:11 with 44 you advocate raising, should we be calling vs shove? or folding?
If we do choose to raise here we need to use a sizing that will hopefully get the pot heads up since our hand doesn't do particularly well post flop. Our sizing should be around 5x-6x and if we raise to this size we are committed to calling the 2nd limpers shove but certainly would fold to the original limper if he shoved.
Thanks for your replies Jeremy, I'd like to add I think your though process explanations are very good, keep up the good work!
Hi Jeremy,
Great video series! Just curious do you ever just flat with a monster hands preflop. Every decent hand in the video you are raising with pre. Maybe you aren't showing the big hands you limp with, or on a site like ACR it makes sense to always raise and not worry about your opponents knowing if you just call pre, you never have a huge hand?
Thanks!
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