This video should have a warning in the intro. Your brain will felt like a train ran over it. Very deep analysis Nick, thank you.
24:02 against better players you consider leading this particular hand ? It is a not monster but getting blown off of the equity against a good portion of his continuing range doesn't look that good.
39:37 kinda interesting turn spot, maybe some GTORB on the next video on it ? My main concern on checking turn is that very few of my flop bluffs want to shut down on this turn, even 87hh against his flop peeling range probably doesn't have an equity advantage. This may lead into a range assymetry towards value. What about two bet sizings on this river ? I am probably overbetting on some river cards that improves the strongest portion of Ax hands and betting 2/3 on favourable runouts as 78.
2402 - i'm not sure how to balance a donking range here well enough to say where this hand should fall. i would expect the best strategy for us to be highly mixed and very hard to implement .. so a more practical strategy like checking range seems like the next best option.
3937 - agree that the turn check should be played sparingly with the top of my range, as opposed to betting. as far as two bet sizings on the river, i think that my range is already hard enough to control in this spot that i would veer away from complicating my strategic options. if i'm going to be objective, i just dont see how i can quantify that i'm anywhere near balanced once i try to play 2 diff sizings OTR(*) . and if i'm not accurately balanced, i can't say that the 2 sizing strategy is netting me more EV , since villain could arbitrarily be taking a strategy that exploits my imbalance. This is why i'm a big fan of practicality, even at the expense of losing some accuracy, in spots that i have not studied a bunch.
*the reason i think it is so hard to control my range on this river is b/c i have so few value hands in my range, that i run the risk of bluffing far too often unless i have a rock solid system for how i go about randomizing .. which i don't have here, so i dont trust my frequencies to be anywhere near accurate in practice if i try to balance 2 sizings
lol i've seen every single one of Tyler's videos, I live for them :P
I've never seen your videos before Nick and this was very prestigious :-) Thank you very much Nick , great vid, my brain is in going bonkers. I wanna hear what Tyler says!!!
Warning:
My first intentions were to just check the spot quickly, and even tho I have tweeked the ranges in the process, I haven't build proper flop models.
http://gtorangebuilder.com/#sharescenarioHash=de7b434b8f648ee74c11048ac29df4aa/rootv=26 -
this seems like a reasonable strat to me. 1-2.5 VBR Flop XR.
OOP (Hero)Value region has over 80% vs IP's PFR flop calling range.
And Hero 'Bluffs' have over 36% vs calling range. Which seems huge.
The EV of Hero is 11.78 vs 10.22.
If we input more polarized XR range for Hero (http://gtorangebuilder.com/#sharescenarioHash=56de124defb9402a35d881a90d84657a/rootv=26),
hero's bluffing region has 30% equity, tho GTORB EVs are 10.33 vs 11.67
Which are not very sound.
Anyway, you can see my assumptions in the model - I haven't worked on them a lot but they seem reasonable.
One of the obvious things we can see is that Hero bets less being polarized (48 vs 65%).
And in the X tree, the polarized range is defending (by calling) more vs IPs bet (which is consistent as %),
which make sense since his betting range is relatively small. We can see that Hero XR % is higher with the balanced/stronger range (because he still wants to protect his X range which contains relatively high equity hands).
Which brings me to the point, which is that GTORB is not betting a lot of the highcard FDs OTT (even those /w GS like 43 and 53s - and which prefer to XF/XC(!) vs IPs bet ).
That leads me to the conclusion that GTORB always prefers the higher equity (pair+draw, rather than HC draw, even if he wants to have a X range - as Nick's QJo hand on K92ccT.
We can see even in 1-2 VBR (http://gtorangebuilder.com/#sharescenarioHash=7e9aa7566c820bf1731d94565c0fff2d/rootv=26), that they're FDs(+GS) that are being XF.
On other hand, Villain's range is defending vs bet way more than 1-A, which indicates really strong range, but it's overall a very strong run out for the BTN's range.
In the X tree we can see that IP is betting most of his top range, betting like 75% of highcards FDs, prefering to bet non-broadway kickers and less Highcard in general. OTR is betting the rest of the highcard FDs, and IP is carefull not to overplay Ax hands, facing a XR from OOP's slowplays.
I won't comment about IP's calling vsCbet Ax combos and IP bet vs misscbet Ax combos, because it's getting to long and there's a lot of nitpicking.
General Takeaways:
- OOP Raiser seems to prefer betting hands that we might think are good for a X range (pair + draw),
then X range is defended mostly by % of the nut portion/strong made hands of the range. Which is not true for IP.
General Questions/Guesses:
- BTN high defend % OTT is due to the general range distribution on Ahi boards ?
- OOP should barrel aggresively this turn since his XR flop range is strong (I can't say purely polarized, but in terms of nuts, it is) and the turn doesn't help BTN's range. So we should expect Hero EV>Villain's.
- OOP is XF FDs(+GS), Is there a mistake ? It might be OK to XF naked low HC FD, but XF some FD+GS seems a lot, even on this drawheavy board.
1) If our bluffing range is more polarized, we are betting FDs but not as much, and our EV is < IP's EV. If we lower VBR less than 1-2, Hero is dominating the EV, which can't be right and still XF some FD+GS (43s).
2) Villain's range is too strong (which might be the case).
p.s. Seems long enough for a thread on it's own, but since it's kinda random, it should ok in the thread and see if there's potential (doubtly around NY but w/e).
The GTORP analysis was great! Its thoroughness is impressive. I have a question. At 13:31 why is villain raising a 45.0 bet to 69.0?
Overall, you had a good grasp of my thought processes. In hand one, I'm overbetting an expanded range in position, because most (all?) players river-cbet some segment of their strongest hands out of position.
In hand two, KJ is squarely located in the bluff catcher region of my hand distribution, so undoubtedly a bet would have been a mistake against proficient opposition.
Fun video, I enjoyed being reviewed. Keep up the good work!
villain's just allin for 69 in that line, if i'm reading it right.
one thing i think is sort of interesting too is that gtorb seems to value KQ/KJ as a more favorable V-bet for IP than hands like AK/AA .. vs the range i gave hero .. which contains no hands between KJ-AK, and also uses QJ as my nut slowplay. so b/c of the removal KJ/KQ > AK as a river v-bet . that being said i don't think it's really all that practical to play like that, b/c its so dependent on having total clairvoyance to OOP's river range.
Keep in mind when you're looking at the frequencies that it's taking blockers into account. In extreme examples like Sauce's quads hand calling "1-A" might end up looking like it's calling less than 1/3rd of 1-A if you just look at the raw frequency, but the 1-A that we actually care about is how often we're calling against all of villain's bluffs and since villain's betting range is composed mostly of value if our calling range blocks his value range well we're always going to end up calling considerably less than the raw 1-A frequency would be expected to look like.
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This video should have a warning in the intro. Your brain will felt like a train ran over it. Very deep analysis Nick, thank you.
24:02 against better players you consider leading this particular hand ? It is a not monster but getting blown off of the equity against a good portion of his continuing range doesn't look that good.
39:37 kinda interesting turn spot, maybe some GTORB on the next video on it ? My main concern on checking turn is that very few of my flop bluffs want to shut down on this turn, even 87hh against his flop peeling range probably doesn't have an equity advantage. This may lead into a range assymetry towards value. What about two bet sizings on this river ? I am probably overbetting on some river cards that improves the strongest portion of Ax hands and betting 2/3 on favourable runouts as 78.
Hey Raphael -
2402 - i'm not sure how to balance a donking range here well enough to say where this hand should fall. i would expect the best strategy for us to be highly mixed and very hard to implement .. so a more practical strategy like checking range seems like the next best option.
3937 - agree that the turn check should be played sparingly with the top of my range, as opposed to betting. as far as two bet sizings on the river, i think that my range is already hard enough to control in this spot that i would veer away from complicating my strategic options. if i'm going to be objective, i just dont see how i can quantify that i'm anywhere near balanced once i try to play 2 diff sizings OTR(*) . and if i'm not accurately balanced, i can't say that the 2 sizing strategy is netting me more EV , since villain could arbitrarily be taking a strategy that exploits my imbalance. This is why i'm a big fan of practicality, even at the expense of losing some accuracy, in spots that i have not studied a bunch.
*the reason i think it is so hard to control my range on this river is b/c i have so few value hands in my range, that i run the risk of bluffing far too often unless i have a rock solid system for how i go about randomizing .. which i don't have here, so i dont trust my frequencies to be anywhere near accurate in practice if i try to balance 2 sizings
lol i've seen every single one of Tyler's videos, I live for them :P
I've never seen your videos before Nick and this was very prestigious :-) Thank you very much Nick , great vid, my brain is in going bonkers. I wanna hear what Tyler says!!!
Good video, Thank you Nick.
About A2hh 6cc hand. Played around a bit.
Warning:
My first intentions were to just check the spot quickly, and even tho I have tweeked the ranges in the process, I haven't build proper flop models.
http://gtorangebuilder.com/#sharescenarioHash=de7b434b8f648ee74c11048ac29df4aa/rootv=26 -
this seems like a reasonable strat to me. 1-2.5 VBR Flop XR.
OOP (Hero)Value region has over 80% vs IP's PFR flop calling range.
And Hero 'Bluffs' have over 36% vs calling range. Which seems huge.
The EV of Hero is 11.78 vs 10.22.
If we input more polarized XR range for Hero (http://gtorangebuilder.com/#sharescenarioHash=56de124defb9402a35d881a90d84657a/rootv=26),
hero's bluffing region has 30% equity, tho GTORB EVs are 10.33 vs 11.67
Which are not very sound.
Anyway, you can see my assumptions in the model - I haven't worked on them a lot but they seem reasonable.
One of the obvious things we can see is that Hero bets less being polarized (48 vs 65%).
And in the X tree, the polarized range is defending (by calling) more vs IPs bet (which is consistent as %),
which make sense since his betting range is relatively small. We can see that Hero XR % is higher with the balanced/stronger range (because he still wants to protect his X range which contains relatively high equity hands).
Which brings me to the point, which is that GTORB is not betting a lot of the highcard FDs OTT (even those /w GS like 43 and 53s - and which prefer to XF/XC(!) vs IPs bet ).
That leads me to the conclusion that GTORB always prefers the higher equity (pair+draw, rather than HC draw, even if he wants to have a X range - as Nick's QJo hand on K92ccT.
We can see even in 1-2 VBR (http://gtorangebuilder.com/#sharescenarioHash=7e9aa7566c820bf1731d94565c0fff2d/rootv=26), that they're FDs(+GS) that are being XF.
On other hand, Villain's range is defending vs bet way more than 1-A, which indicates really strong range, but it's overall a very strong run out for the BTN's range.
In the X tree we can see that IP is betting most of his top range, betting like 75% of highcards FDs, prefering to bet non-broadway kickers and less Highcard in general. OTR is betting the rest of the highcard FDs, and IP is carefull not to overplay Ax hands, facing a XR from OOP's slowplays.
I won't comment about IP's calling vsCbet Ax combos and IP bet vs misscbet Ax combos, because it's getting to long and there's a lot of nitpicking.
General Takeaways:
- OOP Raiser seems to prefer betting hands that we might think are good for a X range (pair + draw),
then X range is defended mostly by % of the nut portion/strong made hands of the range. Which is not true for IP.
General Questions/Guesses:
- BTN high defend % OTT is due to the general range distribution on Ahi boards ?
- OOP should barrel aggresively this turn since his XR flop range is strong (I can't say purely polarized, but in terms of nuts, it is) and the turn doesn't help BTN's range. So we should expect Hero EV>Villain's.
- OOP is XF FDs(+GS), Is there a mistake ? It might be OK to XF naked low HC FD, but XF some FD+GS seems a lot, even on this drawheavy board.
1) If our bluffing range is more polarized, we are betting FDs but not as much, and our EV is < IP's EV. If we lower VBR less than 1-2, Hero is dominating the EV, which can't be right and still XF some FD+GS (43s).
2) Villain's range is too strong (which might be the case).
p.s. Seems long enough for a thread on it's own, but since it's kinda random, it should ok in the thread and see if there's potential (doubtly around NY but w/e).
Hi Nick,
The GTORP analysis was great! Its thoroughness is impressive. I have a question. At 13:31 why is villain raising a 45.0 bet to 69.0?
Overall, you had a good grasp of my thought processes. In hand one, I'm overbetting an expanded range in position, because most (all?) players river-cbet some segment of their strongest hands out of position.
In hand two, KJ is squarely located in the bluff catcher region of my hand distribution, so undoubtedly a bet would have been a mistake against proficient opposition.
Fun video, I enjoyed being reviewed. Keep up the good work!
Hey Tyler-
villain's just allin for 69 in that line, if i'm reading it right.
one thing i think is sort of interesting too is that gtorb seems to value KQ/KJ as a more favorable V-bet for IP than hands like AK/AA .. vs the range i gave hero .. which contains no hands between KJ-AK, and also uses QJ as my nut slowplay. so b/c of the removal KJ/KQ > AK as a river v-bet . that being said i don't think it's really all that practical to play like that, b/c its so dependent on having total clairvoyance to OOP's river range.
Keep in mind when you're looking at the frequencies that it's taking blockers into account. In extreme examples like Sauce's quads hand calling "1-A" might end up looking like it's calling less than 1/3rd of 1-A if you just look at the raw frequency, but the 1-A that we actually care about is how often we're calling against all of villain's bluffs and since villain's betting range is composed mostly of value if our calling range blocks his value range well we're always going to end up calling considerably less than the raw 1-A frequency would be expected to look like.
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