Playing the BB Short Stacked (Part 2)
Posted by Steve Paul
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Great video thanks! Will you continue this for slightly bigger stacks? I would love to see how to split ranges between calling and shoving say with a 15BB stack for example.
Don't have any immediate plans for additional videos but I'll keep it in mind
This is interesting I think you have demonstrated from a chip EV point of view calling is good. But I feel like there is something missing from this equation and that's that when we call and fold we are left with a very short stack with little fold equity on the next round .i.e loosing 1/3 of our short stack is worse than loosing 1/3 or our chips in a $EV/ stack play-ability sense?
Very short stacks get a bad rap. In general (thanks to antes) very short stacks have the highest cEV in a hand, despite having no fold equity.
Here's a look at the sb EV (in bb/100) from holdemresources for a 9 player table with all 10bb stacks and varying the sb stack.
SB stack: EV
10bb: -22.6bb/100
9bb: -23.4bb/100
8bb: -24.0bb/100
7bb: -24.7bb/100
6bb: -24.9bb/100
5bb: -24.9bb/100
4bb: -23.9bb/100
3bb: -17.4bb/100
2bb: +0.5bb/100 (!!)
As you can see as stacks get very short cEV increases dramatically (and are mostly pretty static otherwise). So I don't think passing up a +cEV spot to avoid getting a short stack makes a ton of sense unless there's another argument behind it.
Very short stacks get a bad rap. In general (thanks to antes) very short stacks have the highest cEV in a hand, despite having no fold equity.
Here's a look at the sb EV (in bb/100) from holdemresources for a 9 player table with all 10bb stacks and varying the sb stack.
SB stack: EV
10bb: -22.6bb/100
9bb: -23.4bb/100
8bb: -24.0bb/100
7bb: -24.7bb/100
6bb: -24.9bb/100
5bb: -24.9bb/100
4bb: -23.9bb/100
3bb: -17.4bb/100
2bb: +0.5bb/100 (!!)
As you can see as stacks get very short cEV increases dramatically (and are mostly pretty static otherwise). So I don't think passing up a +cEV spot to avoid getting a short stack makes a ton of sense unless there's another argument behind it.
Well, I wasn't thinking of when you are in the SB as you don't have fold equity unless it folds around, and then not much v the BB. I was more thinking of the next orbit as a whole (though I said round), where you can jam with fold equity. But I take your point that short stacks have their plus sides too (good odds from all the dead money), so maybe jamming with no fold equity is not so bad..
Yeah I think often fold equity is overrated by people, as if jamming and getting folds is the "skillful" way of getting chips and winning an all-in is the "lucky" way. I mean obviously it's great to jam and get folds, but as you point out it takes a fair bit of luck to both get that situation and to get all folds. What we care about is EV, and as long as we're far from the bubble cEV is the best approximation we've got to $EV.
Hi great stuff!!
I was wandering how would it change, if villain was only minraising not 2,3x with 15% opening range. I guess that is a better scenario for us on BB, but can´t get my head around it. We would be able to get it in on less flops (postflop odds 4/13,4) than with him oraising to 2,3x with probably the same average equity. But do not know how to include the preflop better odds into equation. Could you help me out there, please? Thanks.
You should be able to follow the same process I did in this video (or in part 1) to calculate exactly, but the general adjustment is going to be to call wider. The main reason is that you have to put in less money to see if the flop is good enough to get the rest in. S
o if you take any hand, it should improve its EV by roughly 0.3*fold% since you save 0.3bb every time you get a bad flop and have to fold. The times the flop is good you're getting it in and it doesn't really matter how much you put in pre. There will now be a few more flops you fold since as you point out you get worse odds postflop but those are close to 0EV anyways.
Very good vid. It's nice to see sth new,creative,practical.
Thanks, glad you liked it!
Ok, let me see if I undestand it! 'g' is the frequency of chunck 1 in Part 1. And 'e' is 'equity of chunck 1' in Part 1. Am I right?
Timestamp? Been a couple weeks since I made this so don't want to tell you something that's wrong. It sounds like you are correct though.
Nice vid Steve!
As @nalpac sugested earlier, would be interesting to get a deeper view in bigger stacks - id sugest10-12ish bbs - maybe a "stop n go video"; on that scenario, you actualy do have some good fold equity on good flops (not only when you hit, but when villains range tend to miss), so we could explore that and be a little more creative than the push/fold strategy when shortstacked.
Btw, on live i see far more creative plays like those you explain when short than online...
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