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PIO Solver Series (Part 2: C-betting Your Whole Range)

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PIO Solver Series (Part 2: C-betting Your Whole Range)

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Diego Ramirez

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PIO Solver Series (Part 2: C-betting Your Whole Range)

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Diego Ramirez

POSTED Feb 16, 2017

Diego continues where he left off in Part 1 of his PIOsolver series.

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Ciaran Farrell 8 years, 1 month ago

Will the EV loss, for cbetting 100% OOP in 3bet pots, be a lot higher with 100bb stacks? I imagine the larger SPR would have quite a big effect considering we are also OOP.

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

@Claran:

Well, I don't have this simulations, but my guess is:

1-Strategy for OOP player would change a bit due to the larger SPR (sizings, frequencies)
2-It doesn't necessarily have to be a worse situation for OOP, a polarized range benefits more from larger SPR's

So despite being OOP, it doesn't necessarily mean his EV would be lower, it just might mean that his strategy from the flop is a little bit more polarized on more flop textures.

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

Hey guys, about the sound quality, I know that in previous videos it was kind of bad, but in this one now I remember I made sure I would have a proper environment (I moved all my stuff to my room just for the recording of this video, which is a pain in the ass) and I fixed the amplifier of my mic which was ON for the first two videos, and so the file I sent to RIO before they edited it had a perfect sound quality. Maybe the file I sent them was too big and they have to cut on quality on the editing part in order to make it more suitable, I think I would have to ask them about it.

Glad you like the content though, I have a couple more ideas to keep working with Pio and of course the mixed strategy cbetting videos (SB vs BB 66 max, etc.) :)

All day 0 days off 8 years, 1 month ago

Nice video. 1st question: Do we defend more or less in BB due to rake effects at mid stakes? I couldve sworn I heard you say both in the video. I''ll guess less though.

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

Shin: Yup! Suited is shorter :P

@All: Yes we should definitely defend less the higher the rake is. I used to play in a soft random site where you paid about 10-12bb rake per hundred hands and it affected my preflop play a lot! I opened much less with a bigger sizing and had to defend much less too.

Flemeth 8 years, 1 month ago

Hey Rami,

What size of BU open and BB 3bet did you use on last Pio simulation? Although playing 100bb, I have some trouble figuring out my 3bet ranges against short stackers and also defending from the BU so those ranges suit me very well. Also would be really nice to know what is Pio calling to 4bet shove in that situation using such a 3bet linear range.

Awesome series!

PJharvey 7 years, 3 months ago

I have a question for Diego if he's still active here, or anyone else who can answer.
If we calculate our equity advantage and on top of that if we are in position we add + ~10% for equity realization ( - 10% if out of position).
Doesn't that mean we will almost always have equity advantage when in position? (because it's hard to get a equity advantage out of position if IP have 10% premium)

Thank you.

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 3 months ago

Hmmmmm no, not necessarily. We usually call IP because of pot odds.

For example, CO opens and we call on BTN. Or SB opens and we defend on BB. On both situations the raiser has more equity than us. We call for a few reasons, pot odds and better equity realization for being in position being the two most important, so no we don't need to be an equity favourite in order to call from IP

PJharvey 7 years, 3 months ago

You misunderstood my question.
To make it simple, we have called a raise preflop and we are in position. On flop we have 46% raw equity. How do we add the ~10% equity improvement from being in position (realization) on top of that 46%? Just 46+10? Or 46*0.1?

PJharvey 7 years, 3 months ago

Thank you, yeh and I meant to type *1.1.
Do you have a timeline of future videos such as checking whole range, mixed strategies, playing turn/rivers etc. ?

PJharvey 7 years, 3 months ago

Why did you not finish this series? You said in the intro that you would continue with checking whole range, mixed strategies, facing check-raises and playing turns and rivers.
How can we implement the information in this video if we don't have a solid understanding of playing turns/rivers etc.?

cloodie 7 years, 2 months ago

Diego, hopefully you're still around. I've just watched these videos and really enjoyed them. I'm now working on my own calculations for 100bb play before changing my own strategy. I have 2 questions though.
First of all, when you compare the EV of 1/3 cbetting are you comparing it to the overall EV of betting (and checking) when you give PIO the various sizings between 17% and 100%. What I mean is you are running one sim with all those sizes rather than individual ones for each sizing?
Secondly, how exactly are you working out the EV loss between these strategies. For example, on the BTN v BB, the first flop on your spreadsheet (932) has the IP EV as 63.78, the IP EV when cbetting 1/3 as 62.29 with an EV loss of 8.21 when cbetting 1/3. How did you calculate the 8.21 figure?

Thanks

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 2 months ago

1: Yes. The alternative you propose I don't even imagine how it would be done or if the results you would get would make any sense.

2: I adjusted it taking into account the size of the pot (around 5.5bb I think it was). We lose about 1.6ish% of the pot in a 100bb pot, so in a 5.5bb pot, the loss would be 0.165.5100 hands=8.21bb/100 loss, the numbers are not exact but I guess you get the idea. We can both work on % or bb, both are good. In 3bp given the pot is bigger mistakes will be more costly, so % is good also I think.

Hope that helps, glad you like the series!

cloodie 7 years, 2 months ago

Thanks very much for the reply. The videos have given me a completely new outlook in terms of my game. Still fumbling my way around the solver I bought recently but I'll get there :)

saruchabo8 6 years, 10 months ago

Thanks for a nice vid and I have a question.
How did you calculate fixed C-betting size??
Did you force OOP check + IP bet, input multiple bet sizing and took the average of it??

Diego Ramirez 6 years, 9 months ago

Sorry for the delay, was on holidays... if I understand your question correctly, I averaged it, yes. Took the average of cbet sizing * % + checks * %

Bilt2t 6 years, 9 months ago

These videos are really great, I just wish you played 100bb :-)

I am trying to do this study for my 100bb games, I am not very clear if what I am doing is going to give me accurate results so I have a few questions.
1. If I run a script over 90 flop subsets and save flops only, with 3 sizing 20%,33% 70%, then I do the same where we are forced to bet 100% for 1/3, then do an aggregation report for both and compare the average Ev, this will tell me the correct Ev loss overall for 1/3?
2. Is it okay to do the script for flops only? I don't have enough space for full saves.
3. Is it very important to have over bets on the turn and river for the flop 1/3 option to not lose Ev?

Thanks

Diego Ramirez 6 years, 9 months ago

1-Yes, compared to the strategy where Hero can check, bet 20%, 33% or 70%
2-Small save is usually recommended (turn save), it will take longer when you want to explore a file beyond the flop
3-I think so, yes. Check call range vs 1/3 is usually somewhat capped

Bilt2t 6 years, 9 months ago

I have found that a lot of the low rag flops or mid connected flops lose too much by betting 1/3 100%, This is for 100bb, Does that make sense to you? What reason could there be that its okay at 40bb but not 100bb?

SO77 6 years, 9 months ago

Diego Ramirez I tried to run sims like you did in the video for BTN v BB srp. Problem is when I use 5 flop sizings,3 turn, 2 river, the tree is too big for my computers memory (like 13000mb).

What would you recommend editing to make my tree smaller? If I change the stacks from 100bb to 80bb, the tree is a more reasonable 9000mb. Would you recommend I do this, or take out 2 of the flop sizing's?

Which would give me a more accurate result to an actual GTO solution for 100BB flop play given my computers memory restrictions?

Thanks

Diego Ramirez 6 years, 7 months ago

Maybe change computer? :D

16GB RAM is on the lowish side for a computer, maybe try to aim for at least 32GB least (esp for 100bb), a faster processor will help on solving faster. Ryzen or Threadripper are very good options for Pio.

Not an expert on what is the optimal for reducing tree size, try for yourself and estimate, and try again, etc. :D

If you want accurate solutions you need to size up RAM or cut down on preflop ranges, you can get pretty good solutions for 3bet pots with that RAM

round2 6 years, 7 months ago

Really interesting videos Diego Ramirez

However, there's 1 problem with the really small sizing. Say you open BTN to 2x and BB calls. The pot is going to have 4.5bb without accounting for rake. That gives you a minimum bet size of 22% if you min bet.

So you'd have to up your pre-flop sizing in order to be able to c-bet 14% in some instances.

Diego Ramirez 6 years, 7 months ago

Then go for 1bb, no one will notice you are oversizing ^^

In real life we don't need to go that far, most pros use a "standard small size" and stick to it in most situations. Maybe have two: use a standardish 30% small sizing and then an 18-20% for the situations that really call for it and that's it.

uros19 6 years, 7 months ago

Diego Ramirez
How much do we care splitting 1BW flops and rags flops in "connected ones" and "disconnected ones"
For example BUvBB SRP J87, 987, T87, etc. (if we count 9 as a BW card) flops will hit our opponent much harder as he will already have sets, straights, more off-suit two pair combos, ... or do you think its not so important and we can just stick to a simplified strat of betting small?

Very good video series, just hope the sound quality is better in future ones :)

feat.random 6 years ago

Hey, really nice series, but i dont understand why u run the 3b pot with 40bb deep. I mean cash games is 100bb..

alben5114 4 years, 10 months ago

After watching your first video I was so eager to get started with this one... but the audio quality is just... crap. It's too bad because the content is absolutely gold. It's just the delivery....

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