PIO Solver Series (Part 1: C-betting Your Whole Range)

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PIO Solver Series (Part 1: C-betting Your Whole Range)

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Diego Ramirez

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PIO Solver Series (Part 1: C-betting Your Whole Range)

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Diego Ramirez

POSTED Dec 19, 2016

In part 1 of this poker theory video series, Diego Ramirez introduces himself to the Run It Once community with a question: what are the theory implications of c-betting our whole range? With the help of PIO Solver, Diego dives deep into situations that can be applied to all forms of poker.

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grof 8 years, 1 month ago

Gr8 video. However i would like to see same thing but let's say ep vs mp, when we are op vs stronger ranges than big blind is.

TY

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

grof: We will cover many situations in these series, there will be at least one video where we will talk about checking our whole range, in wich there will be OOP spots like the one you refer to where we need to be checking our whole range in many flop textures.

Deactivated User 8 years, 1 month ago

Very good video! Of the best theory videos I've seen here! There is one thing that I am not very clear and it is the difference between nut advantage and equity advantage, if we have the nuts in our range normally we will have more equity than our rival will not? Could you give me some examples of cases where the rival despite being capped has more equity than we?

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

That's what I've been doing in the video!

I give two examples in the video of nut advantage and equity disadvantage. On the first example I give, we open from the BTN and get called by BB on a AKQr flop. We have by far a huge nut advantage but we happen to have equity disadvantage (we have 47,5% equity on the flop), therefore we bet very large and polarized, checking a very big percentage of our range.

The second example I give, is the extreme example on the 222r flop were we have 12 combos of nuts (KK-QQ) and 20 combos of bluffs and villain has 30 combos of bluffcatchers (JJ-77). In this example IP has equity disadvantage (only 36% equity) but of course nut advantage, therefore betting very big.

It's not such an uncommon spot and happens somewhat often in SB vs BB 6 max spots.

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

Having nut advantage means having the biggest share of the very good hands, the hands that can bet 3 streets for value, check raise and bet two streets for value, etc... and having equity advantage simply means having more raw equity. I would say nut equity is a much more important concept than raw equity.

They both usually come together, when a player has nut advantage usually has equity advantage, but that's not always the case, as in the two examples we just saw.

I understand some people could be familiar with these concepts and therefore didn't want to go much deeply into them, but I think I covered them nicely with some exa,ples, as they are very key concepts to flop interactions.

Deactivated User 8 years, 1 month ago

On the other hand I would like to see in next videos how do you work/study with Pio, how do u combine it with excel and get those kind of conclusions! See u!

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

Not sure if I want to make a whole video tutorial on that, what I can do in next videos is try to explain a little bit better the process I have gone through to get that kind of results, which I have already done in this video. Cheers :)

Fox 111 8 years, 1 month ago

Great video thanks !

When we use a 1/3 pot range cbet strat on the flop (with a good equity and nut advantage obv) and get raise, how should we defend against that ? seems hard to defend correctly since we are cbeting our entire range, we should devellop a decently wide reraising range right ?

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

That's a very interesting topic and something I am open to explore in next videos! I understand we are using a new strategy and so it's not so intuitive how we should defend against counterstrategies we're not familiar with, and so defend ranges against check raises are a little bit different. Now what do we do with underpairs? And with second pairs? And so on. I also struggle a little bit sometimes. but keep in mind two things:

First, in equilibrium we should get check raised a frequency in the 20% neighbourhood. That not even close to what we see at the tables. Therefore we simply win more by using this strategy in an exploitative way.

And second, we are cbetting our whole range, therefore it's going to be more simple and intuitive how we should defend compared to a mixed cbet strategy because it is our entire range which is on the line and we're going to visualize it a little bit better than if we had a semi-random somewhat polarized cbetting range.

Regarding 3betting flop, in general it's not very common because villain's range, though merged, is somewhat polarized once he check raises, but of course it depends on board texture. But Pio favors calling due to the nature of villain's somewhat polarized range.

adi1 8 years, 1 month ago

liked.

i'm wondering about polarizing flop cb ranges in multi-way pots...say you raise and the pot goes 4 way and flop is AJThh....

this is a board where you obv don't bet your full range for 1/3pot, but i'm wondering if you can bet as big as 2/3 (like you would in a hu pot) when you're probably just not going to be bluffing a whole lot here.
is this a spot where you polarize your range, but still have to bet on the smaller side simply because you're capped by the bluffs you could show up with?

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

MW pots of course cannot be studied with Pio, but we do know that now our equity advantage is gone in most spots, therefore we should be using a polarized strat in most flops. And definitely AJThh is a flop in which we don't want to be even close to cbetting our whole range. Not against one opponent, much less against 2+...

Regarding the other part of your question, I think you have a few wrong ideas, I have a feeling that you`re facing it from a wrong side.

"is this a spot where you polarize your range, but still have to bet on the smaller side simply because you're capped by the bluffs you could show up with?"

No, this is wrong. We cbet big for different reasons (nut advantage, type of board, stack depth,...), and then we add bluffs accordingly. We're not capped by the bluffs we could show up with! In this spot we simply tend to bet big because in general our range is more nutty than our opponents' ranges. Then we add bluffs, like Q9, 98, Kx, Qx, fd, bdfd, etc.

I would like to add in case you have a wrong idea, that a range is capped simply when it doesn't contain many nutted hands.

Hope that helps.

adi1 8 years, 1 month ago

thanks for the reply.

i think capped was the wrong for for what i meant. i meant what if you come up w a value range of JT+ for cb on flop and a betting plan of 2/3pot on flop, pot on turn, pot (or higher) on river, and so need x number of bluffs on flop.
after coming up with hands you deem as reasonable/good for bluffing, should you add weaker/random/backdoor bluffs to reach the ratios you want (given your value range and bet sizes), add in weaker made hands to your bluffs, or lower your betting % and take away some value hands?

is there always enough (at least) semi-reasonable bluffs on flop? and the worst of those can give up on turn?

last question on this (sorry it's so long), same scenario but with only 1-1.5 spr on flop. do you use same cb size, shove it all in, or bet very small to set up turn shove? (or even separate your range into 2 bet sizes of all-in and 20-ish% pot?)

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

adi1: Let's try to bring some light to the subject:

"i think capped was the wrong for for what i meant. i meant what if you come up w a value range of JT+ for cb on flop and a betting plan of 2/3pot on flop, pot on turn, pot (or higher) on river, and so need x number of bluffs on flop."

Correct.

"after coming up with hands you deem as reasonable/good for bluffing, should you add weaker/random/backdoor bluffs to reach the ratios you want (given your value range and bet sizes), add in weaker made hands to your bluffs, or lower your betting % and take away some value hands?"

I don't really get your question.

"is there always enough (at least) semi-reasonable bluffs on flop? and the worst of those can give up on turn?"

There are always enough bluffs to pick from! They don't necessarily have to have good equity against a bluffcatcher! Imagine a spot on the turn on a TT55r board: our bluffs have close to 0 equity, but we still would need to find them :)

"last question on this (sorry it's so long), same scenario but with only 1-1.5 spr on flop. do you use same cb size, shove it all in, or bet very small to set up turn shove? (or even separate your range into 2 bet sizes of all-in and 20-ish% pot?)"

Of course bet sizing depends on SPR, and so many other factor.. In the particular spot you mention... it depends on so many things: type of board, ranges, removal effects... Pio can choose there a wide variety of strategies. There are no fixed rules :)

Other than that, we should stick to the topic of this video, we're going off on a tangent :)

vladxxx 8 years, 1 month ago

This looks way more elite than essential video, big congratulations for the presentation and your way of organizing ideas!

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

Thanks all for the good feedback! And also feel free to give some negative feedback too! I can learn from that too.

I had the chance to watch the video myself and realized I was a little too nervous because I had so many things I wanted to say in 40 minutes! And also because the environment to record here in the condo is not particularly good, with people passing by close to where I record, my roomies entering and leaving the place... I will try to do better next time.

Glad you liked it! Think I gotta ask for a raise :P

DaoistWisdom 8 years, 1 month ago

Wellcome! Good quality video, tx.
Would be nice to see some 40bb strategy videos!

Diego Ramirez 8 years, 1 month ago

There will definitely be 40bb strategy videos! I will address 100bb deep spots sometimes but all my work with Pio and what I feel I can teach the best is based on 40-50bb deep. Glad you liked the vid :)

RobBalmforth 8 years, 1 month ago

Great video, looking forward to the next ones. Btn vs BB 1/3 range is also something I have been using on paired/monotone/1bw tables and would very much like any advice on! Maybe another video.

Nice debut.

banditz 8 years, 1 month ago

Would very much like to see a video outlining major differences between 40bb play and 100bb play, and how your ranges/strategy changes preflop as you go from 40-100bb.

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

Not that it is in my next plans, here you have 100bb very good quality content, and with me you will get solid 40bb content.

In general I would say that you should always favour playing hands that fit well your SPR, in general opening/defending/3betting ranges change a little bit in their morphology, bigger SPR's favour hands that flop sets/str8s/flushes and lower SPR's hands that flop top pair/overpair hands.

Yegor 8 years, 1 month ago

Good video, clear explanation, quality content!
continue! thank you!
its interesting how more then one(2-3) opponent will influence our strategy?

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

Thanks!
The main adjustment in general is that we should be doing a lot more checking. We no longer have equity advantage except for rare flop textures. We often have nut advantage and that's why despite being 3+ way we can still bet big on some textures.

Benzzz 8 years, 1 month ago

Fantastic video. Probably one of the most useful for me as of recent!

How do we go about using the preflop subset of 74 flops ? Did you use that within pio ?

Thanks

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

You should check the "generate script" feature on Pio! There is one tutorial on that on PioSOLVER youtube channel.

doncamatic 8 years ago

Excellent video. In future if you are showing us PIO results can you briefly go over the ranges used. I'm unfamiliar with the software so I don't know whether it has default ranges that we input for certain spots or if we have to define them ourselves.

Also it would be great if you could go over the different types of flops and how they change our cbetting strategy in more detail.

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

You have to define the ranges in Pio. My sims are mostly for 40bbs so ranges are a little bit different than with 40bbs, but they are overall very very reasonable.

We will go into more detail in different strategies in different types of textures in the second part of these series :)

strikerp 8 years ago

Thanks for the great video.
One question regarding this topic, what do you think about betting whole range with a small sizing on some flops in 3bet pots, but oop?
Especially from the blinds in a restealed pot, there are some flops we have a huge equity and nut advantage, but being oop makes it hard to play on turn and river + villain can easier defend vs e.g. a 1/3 pot cbet, so I am not sure about betting the whole range is max ev.
Looking forward for the next video!:)

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

Yes you are absolutely right! We definitely can cbet range in 3bet pots on some textures even OOP! That's the idea from this video I hope people take: when we have a big range advantage (both equity and nut advantage), usually betting whole range maximizes ev.

This is BB vs BTN 3bet pot on 622r (40bb eff). This strategy is GTO, not betting whole range. When the situation is very good we continue to bet our whole range, but we stop betting small and we go for bigger sizings. In this case we bet about 1/2 pot even with 40bb eff which leads to a SPR of about 2.5. So even with SPR as short as 2.5, we are allowed to bet 1/2 pot due to our huge range advantage (our EV = 72% of the pot). I said it once in the video, the bigger the advantage the bigger the sizing will be! :)

Screenshot of our range, our EV and our strategy allowing Pio to choose from 9 sizings lol:

https://gyazo.com/64cf22ce97bea602d1b42d321bb4f6f7

Cobra Kai 8 years ago

Talking about what board textures to bet and use a more polarized range on more wet boards is kind of basic stuff. I like how you explained it though. Will be interesting as we get more into the turn in river. Can't wait for the next video.

Arnaud Lafaurie 8 years ago

Hello
thanks for this video, it made me play with Pio :) but one question what was your setup to calculate your CB-betting frequencies? because it is heavily dependent on what are the lines used after flop no? I did not find same conclusions as yours like for example on the Q72 flop.

Arnaud Lafaurie 8 years ago

I mean what did you choose as raise size on the flop/turn if you put one for OOP and IP, as well as turn bet size for OOP and IP; river size etc...

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

https://gyazo.com/fbf841bef67b27314aea18a4f74517fe

Here is the input for the spot, if you change preflop ranges, sizings on one or more streets, etc. you are not going to get the same results. That's why I like to allow for a few ranges on every street so that Pio has freedom and I get let's say more stable conclusions. Sorry for the delay and happy new year!

Cobra Kai 8 years ago

you probably put in a different cb amount then diego did so it changes the results on pio.

Fyrtorn 8 years ago

Really Great video man! This should Rally be an elite video:) With That said it would be Nice if you could talk abit slower and do things abit slower in future videos. It sounds like you are in a real hurry all the time.

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

Yeah you're absolutely right! that's my bad. I was a little bit nervous because I was already 1 day late on delivery and had to finish that day, there were a lot of people passing by near the place I record, my friends entering and leaving the place... and also I had so many things to tell in 42 minutes! so I was kinda on a rush. I will try to do better :)

Kingfish123 8 years ago

Who we are? We are the people that wants that spreadsheet = )

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

You don't want the spreadsheet! You want the tools on how to think and learn. I give you a lot in this video on how to think on flop interactions, and if there is a high demand I could explain on other video how to generate scripts, but there is already a free tutorial on PioSOLVER youtube channel that explains you how to do that. Then you will be able to create your own ranges, different to mine and more suitable for your metagame and stack-depth. This video is not intended for you to implement exaclty what I do blindly, but to let you think better on flop interactions and give you a hint on the way I work with Pio and what the best strategies look like for some situations. It's then for to you to then implement it in your own tables :P

jp21 8 years ago

Thanks for the video Diego

Is there any differents in Basic and Pro versions of Pio solver for making calculations you made in this video?

Arnaud Lafaurie 8 years ago

Diego
I found myself a little bit lost on lot of board especially with the conclusion you made on bet small your overall range.

As example on Ah Kh 5c flop, EP vs SB flat, you've got a very high equity advantage and I guess a range advantage as well?
when running this spot into Pio it gives a big bet size and high frequency of betting.

when it starts also to be quite drawy, bet sizing is not so a clear cut between big and small size, sometimes big, sometimes small, sometimes high frequency of betting.

I did a 74 flops aggregation and to be honest I'm lost to get some overall tendencies except for very dry or paired flop.

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

I already told you in these comments that the outputs depend on the inputs you give to Pio, EP vs SB is going to be very different compared to EP vs BB situations for obvious reasons: SB's range is much different than BB's! Also you may have changed sizings, etc.- it's only normal results are different.
Also, it is very normal to feel like you're hitting against a wall when starting to work with Pio. That's also why I tried to put some light on how to analyze flops, the way I do in the video makes a lot of sense and is useful to take good conclusions.

Salternator 8 years ago

Great video. Are you sure being deeper doesnt have a considerable effect on the value of betting full range in spots where the OOP players can check raise very aggressively?

Cheers

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

Yes! I am sure. Of course there are always changes depending on preflop ranges, and also of course now there are worse tables for IP like 976ss, where now overpairs just have so much less EV, but the general idea remains true. As always, I recommend you to make your own simulations!

Also, OOP will always check raise less aggressively the deeper we are, our value range for c/r+b+ai is so much smaller for OOP with 100bb than for 40bb!

AlexKalugin 8 years ago

Hello. Thank you for great video! I don’t understand extreme example with flop 222r
There was 3 streets of betting with whole range KK-QQ, 64s-53s (32 combs) or river betting with only KK-QQ? Why not just call 2 streets and always fold the river OOP? If IP bet 3 streets with whole range, OOP has a 55% EV or more for call on most rivers. Explain please.

Diego Ramirez 8 years ago

No, we don't bet whole range in all 3 sreets! Ok, assume we bet balanced flop and turn. Now we do the same on the river, but it turns our we run out of bluffs! This means our river range is so strong that OOP has to always fold the river, which means he always lose the whole pot PLUS his calls on flop and turn, which means he is winning more by directly folding the flop.

Hope that helps :)

podskiii 7 years, 11 months ago

At 35:09
How do you get EV for "IP EV 1/3 Bet"? Did you make full saves and told PIOsolver to bet 100% of range? If not how do you find EV for one particular betsize when you have multiple betsizings? Can't seem to find out the EV for different betsizes? Did you use range explorer?

IP EV I assume you just, clicked on IP EV button in PIO?

Thanks

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 11 months ago

I forced OOP check + IP bet, and I allowed only one sizing for Pio: 33. I didn't have to make full saves, just flop+turn.

No, for in order for Pio to tell you IP EV you go to aggregated reports.

If you have any further questions feel free to ask :)

alza21 7 years, 11 months ago

Great stuff. I for one would be interested in a video about your strategy when you buy in for 40-50bb and the major differences with a 100bb strategy. Not sure if there is any content on the subject on RIO.

77rio77 7 years, 11 months ago

Diego, how do you calculate the EV lost? I cant get it.

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 11 months ago

Hiya!

About the EV loss calculation, strategy A wins 70% of the pot. Suboptimal strategy B wins 69%, so the EV loss of second strategy is 1%.

1% in a 5.5bb pot is 0.055bb. If we play this situation a hundred times, strategy B will lose 5.5bb across these 100 hands. Therefore, the EV loss in bb from strategy A to strategy B is 5.5bb/100.

I find maybe % loss more intuitive, because the EV loss on small percentages on 3bet pot or river situations is much more important in bb than on the flop, but bb loss should be in mind. I think both are valid ways to measure strategies.

Bensch 7 years, 10 months ago

Hi, very nice video. =)
What bb defending range do you use in example 2, the AKQ rainbow board where you said bb has an equity advantage.

Keep up the good work

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 10 months ago

It's the same as in part 2 BB vs BTN defend, not sure if it is also on this video too. It's a 36% defend range if I remember correctly.

Thanks Bensch ^^

nittyoldman 7 years, 9 months ago

I noticed at 31:00 when you say we open from IP you say we have a tight range because we have 4-5 behind us...so I am assuming when you say IP (in position) you are really meaning EP (early position)?

MengHao 7 years, 9 months ago

Is it better on the river of Q7269 to bet less than overpot with 100bb stacks? I want to bet my AQ especially after c-betting 1/3 on the flop. If not I guess I will just do it anyway to patzers.

MengHao 7 years, 9 months ago

The average is less than overbet on the turn. Also in the example we bet 68 to 91 when we checked the river with AQ.

Pocarex 7 years, 8 months ago

"when we have nut and equity advantage we double barrel a blank turn with a almost potsize bet". Do you mean with the whole range or should we realy polarize our range and bet only with the nuts en pure bluffs? If so what is the best strategy with our medium strength hands on blank turns? And what is the best strategy on the river when our bluff gets called on the turn?

Verry good series btw it helped me a lot!

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 8 months ago

I mean polarized of course, betting whole range with a huge sizing is almost always a mistake.

Medium strength hands in general will check along with some other weak and strong hands, unless we want to develop another small sizing strategy on the turn, which I don't recommend.

On the river we continue with some bluffs and give up with some,otherwise we won be overbluffing ^^
We usually pick the ones that have the best removal effects

flzgone1 7 years, 8 months ago

"Having nuts in our range hugely helps us realize the equity of our bluffcatchers"

Can you explain it a little further please, i'm not sure to understand this concept. thank you Diego

Diego Ramirez 7 years, 8 months ago

For example, if we have a range full of bluff catchers our opponent can bet huge, which greatly damages our equity realization because we have to fold more of them. When we have some very strong hands in our range he has to be a little careful with the sizing he chooses. The nuts vs bluff catcher example. In this video helps to understand it a little better

Lbergen 7 years, 7 months ago

Great video, very well explained. Im a little confused when you say the BB has more equity than the BTN on a AKQr board. Im running the ranges on this board and its showing me the BB only has 46% equity. I actually cant find any flops where the BB has more equity, maybe im doing something wrong? Thank you!

quanticmind241 6 years, 9 months ago

Hello Diego, excellent video, ya que sos de españa y yo de argentina voy a hablarte en castellano, tengo una duda con la nut advantage, esta se debe al porcentaje de manos nut en cada rango, o a la equidad de las mismas; un ejemplo 6max el CO hace open raise y la
BB hace 3bet y el CO hace call, si el flop es T94s, el BB tiene QQ+ 21 combos (AA,KK,QQ,TT), mientras que el CO tiene 14 (QQ,TT,99,T9s (yo defiendo QQ,AK x call vs un 3bet del BB con un rango aprox 7-8%)), si bien el BB tiene mayor porcentaje de combos nut, los combos del CO tienen mayor equidad ya que son sets y doubles pairs, de hecho la equidad de los combos nut del CO esta en aprox 56% vs un 46% de equidad de los combo nut del BB, se puede decir que el BB tiene nut advantage en esta situacion, importa solo el % de manos nut, o tambien la equidad de los mismos. Otra pregunta que tengo es como clasificaria los combo draws muy fuertes como QcJc,9c8c. Gracias x la respuesta y un saludo desde Buenos aires.

Diego Ramirez 6 years, 9 months ago

Hola argentino! I think we should just stick to English here... :)

"Nut advantage" is heavily influenced by SPR and the dinamism of the board.

The problem for OOP here is that his very good hands (overpairs, basically) are somewhat likely to decrease in EV in a lot of future runnouts (3rd suit, K, Q, 8, 7, 6), so his high EV hands are not that high EV hands, despite being strong hands as overpairs.
On top of that, he will realize its equity worse by being OOP. So all in all I would say it's a pretty bad (not terrible though) board for OOP and should be checking a lot. BB here doesn't have equity advantage at all. Not only that, but we shouldn't look at who has more nut combos in absolute terms, but who has a higher percentage of combos relative to the totality of his range. In this case, also, CO has way higher percentage of very good hands. BB has a ton of AK-AQ. And yes, combo draws are really high EV hands in almost any situation.

There is more you can learn -and I'm sure it will help you clarify these concepts a lot- about SPR, high EV hands and equity realization in my "SB vs BB" video.

quanticmind241 6 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for your answer Diego, I'm going to watch the video you say, I think your videos are great (I only had time to look two), I love poker theory, regards

G G 6 years, 6 months ago

lol where have you been man .... people need you

Diego Ramirez 6 years, 6 months ago

Well, I had some very nice and much needed 5 weeks off of everything related to poker (yearly holidays), after that have been playing non stop for another 5 weeks, getting myself deeper and deeper into the worse downswing I've ever had in 12 years. Chinese games really do have some variance (and collusion lol). It has affected my confidence a lot (weak mental game, as I mentioned in this very same video), so I'm trying to rebuild everything: my confidence, my mental strength, my game which, on a downswing, seems to go down the drain.

I still haven't worked on the next video after coming back from holidays but I already had a few peaces put together from before. Theory videos take time, but videos will continue to come eventually, I promise that, I love doing them.

Benzzz 5 years, 9 months ago

I second that Diego! Chinese games = 2 of my worst downswings in 12 years in 2 years, they do indeed have that variance (and collusion! maybe more than i even believe!)

Komalley 6 years, 5 months ago

Hi, great video. Something I didn't understand is when we are the BTN on AKQr vs the BB. You said we have the nut advantage, but only 47.5% equity. How is this possible when we have all KQ+ and all 16 combos of JT? I ran a Pio sim and it says we as the IP have 53% equity? Maybe I made a mistake in my sim?

abhi147 6 years, 1 month ago

Hi Diego. Amazing video.
At 20:45, why does oop gets to realize none of it? I can't understand, he always has the option to bluffcatch right, and IP has a lot of bluffs in his range( doesn't it depend on how often he triple barrels with his bluffs,and his pot odds on the river? ) And can you please explain how does adding aces to OOP range affects his equity realization, can you please elaborate on the calculation behind it?
Thanks :)

taco 4 years, 8 months ago

Talk about first impressions...great video! I will be looking forward to watching the rest of your videos.

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