great vid, I wanted to add that as someone who has studied and (tried to) implemented these sizes it has been largly successfull. using some pretty large sims Sb vs BU 3bp here are some examples of the kinds of flops that I have found applicable. pot is 24bb so 2.4bb is 10%psb ....
I have also found that the BU facing 10%psb on many flops, folds much greater than the math(alpha) . another huristic is continuing on the turn after being called is often another small 25%psb.
thanks really happy to see you looking at this.
Would like some mixed game / PLO but content but recognise that you have said previously that you can't really reveal stuff because of other people you have worked with. Maybe something on the general differences between limit and big bet games pitched at a reasonably advanced level?
Curious what you have been working on for the last little while having taken a step back from poker if you are able to share?
idea for your next video:
If you were a small or midstakes grinder in 2021, how would go about getting to the top or improving as efficiently / effectively as possible. Everything from which areas you would work on first, how you'd identify leaks, picking which areas to work on, how you would work on these areas, what ratio of play to study, what your study would look like, any books, tools, content you would consume, etc.
Assume there will become a point where you stop making videos, showing us which path to take would be the greatest gift :)
Hello Ben,
This was a really interesting video and something I'm keen to add to my game at some point. If you were to pick just one bet size in the range from min bet to around ~15% to add to your game first which would you recommend? You mentioned 10-12% being the sweet spot for lots of boards so this seems like a good option. Min bet could potentially cause more confusion(perceived as a misclick)/mistakes/extreme reactions and is way funnier. Kinda torn which one to pick.
Some things I find useful on PIO in general and especially when experimenting with small betsizes: using a pot of 230 and stack of 900 is a good way to work around the fact PIO only bets in integers (round big blinds) and so allows you to use more precise small betsizes that aren't rounded up or down to nearest big blind. Remember to multiply your rake cap by x10 too.
Adding 'e' as a flop/turn raise size and turn bet sizing for your opponent (exponential bet size), and 'a' as river bet/raise size will ensure your opponent can bet all of his chips by the river and using small sizings won't limit the amount they can put in the pot by the river by you using small bets. Not so important with small SPR like here, but way more important when it's bigger.
Given your current lack of poker playing, I agree that a focus on theory videos is a good idea. There's plenty of players on RIO currently playing 500nl+ and making good liveplay/hand history review videos, however there are few people in the world who have an understanding of game theory and general poker theory as good as you. Your theory videos are some of the best poker content available.
My favourite video that you have ever made for RIO was where you looked at a common mistake people make by cbetting too frequently out of position. You used a GTO sim, and nodelocked sims for different incorrect strategies to work out how the cbettor is losing EV by cbetting too much even if they are betting a balanced range. The answer was in fact that the checking range loses EV vs a high frequency stab - something that was not instantly obvious to me as a way to punish such a strategy. Previously I had raised cbets like crazy in attempt to exploit, but it does not work out well against someone with a somewhat balanced cbetting strategy. So my suggestion for some future videos would be something similar - other spots where people regularly make mistakes and how to exploit these mistakes - in particular any exploits that may not be obvious at first sight. For example, lots of regs cbet too often in 3bet pots IP, lots of players bet too often on monotone boards and don't trap enough - it would be interesting to look at how exactly to respond to someone making these type of mistakes - should it be with more calling/raising/turn probing/a mixture of all?
Another area I would like to hear your thoughts on is merged betting, particularly OOP. I understand that you need to bet thinner for value OOP vs IP because of an inability to check back for a cheap showdown and not wanting to face a polarised betting range after checking, however I find it hard to replicate PIO's strategy when it comes to merged turn betting and thin river betting. A theory breakdown on this, along with adjustments vs how opponents are likely to play in reality would be really cool. Example situation: 3bet pot BB vs BTN - 3barreling JTs on J32rKX (river block).
Absolutely loved this one!! Spent ~3 hours on this vid taking notes, running the sims and looking at them in my pio.
Would absolutely love to see more of these interesting, specific/esoteric kind of discoveries and overall I think theory videos are the best kind (and also rare to come by, esp good ones) so when you make them it's a holiday.
Perhaps stuff like comparing the more standard 100bb strats to deeper/ante games could be cool. Also Asdfghjkl1's ideas itt are the nuts.
I have a question if it's cool -
At ~36:40 you say "OOP is using more money on average here using the 1/3 pot sizing more often despite that it's 19% check".
I am not sure whether you meant one of the tiny sizings or both together in comparison to the b40 but isn't the b40 putting more money on average? Or am I miscalculating?
Ben Sulsky I would love to get a documentary type video from yourself, showing interesting hands about what the game was like pre Black Friday, post Black Friday when you were considered the top 5 players alive across all the different games, going all the way until you stopped playing professionally. It would be amazing to see your databases across those times, how stats have changed and who the best players you faced were year-by-year across different games. It would also be amazing to hear your understanding of the modern ecosystem at high stakes including tournament poker, live cash and app games. As one of your biggest fans, something like that would be one of the most engaging pieces of content that could be produced. Hope you are enjoying life and thanks for all the amazing content over the years
Ben Sulsky Doug literally said you that you are the smartest guy to ever have played the game a year after your heads up match, then Phil Galfond said on a podcast recently that yourself, Ben86 and Berri were the only players he would refuse action on in the HUPLO challenge he played last year. You must be able to remember broadly remember what was going on across those timelines :-) Even the some information on the state of the games now, why you never transitioned to high stakes tourneys like Ike or why you never went to Macao to play in the juicy games when Durrr did. Also who your friends are in Poker. There are many of us on the site that would love to hear about all this stuff. You could even do an old school 'Well" type thing that all the legends did on 2+2 back in the day but in video format, where people submit questions.
Would love to see some more general thoughts on poker across different variants as opposed to just nlhe, especially if you’re not playing now that may be more fair game.
As for this specific video, I haven’t tried it, but I wonder if giving ip a very large raise could disincentivize the tiny bet or not. Just my first thought when it was set up. Because as-is making the tiny bet costs at most 45% of the original pot essentially, and the only downside of the tiny bet as I see it theoretically is reopening the action. But given only a 45% raise, that downside is not too bad. Given a much larger raise option for ip it might negate the power of the min bet a bit.
It's an OOP min bet so it's not reopening the action? I see your broader point though. It is possible that by altering the size the opponent can effectively bet from 33 and 75 to 45 only it is having that effect for a very small cost.
Oh whoops it is oop! That's what I get for skimming, but yeah it still seems like you get my point holonomy. Like, we by betting 1bb, since ip can only raise 45% we effectively put a cap on the betting in this street by our opponent. And for 1bb that is worth it.
But if opponent has 100% raise or larger then we don't get that benefit from the min bet.
Dang. Was kind of sad to hear the intro. Have been watching the sauce vids since the beginning (like 2010 ish) and have learned SO much over the years. Thanks Ben.
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Like the overall idea and strategy but at15:52 Isn't it an increase of 0.34%? 0.051/14.885.
great vid, I wanted to add that as someone who has studied and (tried to) implemented these sizes it has been largly successfull. using some pretty large sims Sb vs BU 3bp here are some examples of the kinds of flops that I have found applicable.
pot is 24bb so 2.4bb is 10%psb ....
I have also found that the BU facing 10%psb on many flops, folds much greater than the math(alpha) . another huristic is continuing on the turn after being called is often another small 25%psb.
thanks really happy to see you looking at this.
Would like some mixed game / PLO but content but recognise that you have said previously that you can't really reveal stuff because of other people you have worked with. Maybe something on the general differences between limit and big bet games pitched at a reasonably advanced level?
So, that was the first episode of the new series : "Shower Thought Principles"
When do you take another shower ?
Hey Ben
Curious what you have been working on for the last little while having taken a step back from poker if you are able to share?
idea for your next video:
If you were a small or midstakes grinder in 2021, how would go about getting to the top or improving as efficiently / effectively as possible. Everything from which areas you would work on first, how you'd identify leaks, picking which areas to work on, how you would work on these areas, what ratio of play to study, what your study would look like, any books, tools, content you would consume, etc.
Assume there will become a point where you stop making videos, showing us which path to take would be the greatest gift :)
I'd like to make this video at some point soon
Yeah, great ideas... would love to see some off topic to! Thanks for all the work you put into the site. Big inspiration! :) Ben Sulsky
This would be the absolute nuts !
Hello Ben,
This was a really interesting video and something I'm keen to add to my game at some point. If you were to pick just one bet size in the range from min bet to around ~15% to add to your game first which would you recommend? You mentioned 10-12% being the sweet spot for lots of boards so this seems like a good option. Min bet could potentially cause more confusion(perceived as a misclick)/mistakes/extreme reactions and is way funnier. Kinda torn which one to pick.
Some things I find useful on PIO in general and especially when experimenting with small betsizes: using a pot of 230 and stack of 900 is a good way to work around the fact PIO only bets in integers (round big blinds) and so allows you to use more precise small betsizes that aren't rounded up or down to nearest big blind. Remember to multiply your rake cap by x10 too.
Adding 'e' as a flop/turn raise size and turn bet sizing for your opponent (exponential bet size), and 'a' as river bet/raise size will ensure your opponent can bet all of his chips by the river and using small sizings won't limit the amount they can put in the pot by the river by you using small bets. Not so important with small SPR like here, but way more important when it's bigger.
Given your current lack of poker playing, I agree that a focus on theory videos is a good idea. There's plenty of players on RIO currently playing 500nl+ and making good liveplay/hand history review videos, however there are few people in the world who have an understanding of game theory and general poker theory as good as you. Your theory videos are some of the best poker content available.
My favourite video that you have ever made for RIO was where you looked at a common mistake people make by cbetting too frequently out of position. You used a GTO sim, and nodelocked sims for different incorrect strategies to work out how the cbettor is losing EV by cbetting too much even if they are betting a balanced range. The answer was in fact that the checking range loses EV vs a high frequency stab - something that was not instantly obvious to me as a way to punish such a strategy. Previously I had raised cbets like crazy in attempt to exploit, but it does not work out well against someone with a somewhat balanced cbetting strategy. So my suggestion for some future videos would be something similar - other spots where people regularly make mistakes and how to exploit these mistakes - in particular any exploits that may not be obvious at first sight. For example, lots of regs cbet too often in 3bet pots IP, lots of players bet too often on monotone boards and don't trap enough - it would be interesting to look at how exactly to respond to someone making these type of mistakes - should it be with more calling/raising/turn probing/a mixture of all?
Another area I would like to hear your thoughts on is merged betting, particularly OOP. I understand that you need to bet thinner for value OOP vs IP because of an inability to check back for a cheap showdown and not wanting to face a polarised betting range after checking, however I find it hard to replicate PIO's strategy when it comes to merged turn betting and thin river betting. A theory breakdown on this, along with adjustments vs how opponents are likely to play in reality would be really cool. Example situation: 3bet pot BB vs BTN - 3barreling JTs on J32rKX (river block).
Great video!
Would love to see a continuation of this video on how to play turns and river after using this strategy
Hi Ben !
Absolutely loved this one!! Spent ~3 hours on this vid taking notes, running the sims and looking at them in my pio.
Would absolutely love to see more of these interesting, specific/esoteric kind of discoveries and overall I think theory videos are the best kind (and also rare to come by, esp good ones) so when you make them it's a holiday.
Perhaps stuff like comparing the more standard 100bb strats to deeper/ante games could be cool. Also Asdfghjkl1's ideas itt are the nuts.
I have a question if it's cool -
At ~36:40 you say "OOP is using more money on average here using the 1/3 pot sizing more often despite that it's 19% check".
I am not sure whether you meant one of the tiny sizings or both together in comparison to the b40 but isn't the b40 putting more money on average? Or am I miscalculating?
I did -
.193 * 9 > (.3282 *3) + .2367 * (1)
1.737 > .9846 + . 2367
1.747 > 1.2213
Thanks !
Ben Sulsky I would love to get a documentary type video from yourself, showing interesting hands about what the game was like pre Black Friday, post Black Friday when you were considered the top 5 players alive across all the different games, going all the way until you stopped playing professionally. It would be amazing to see your databases across those times, how stats have changed and who the best players you faced were year-by-year across different games. It would also be amazing to hear your understanding of the modern ecosystem at high stakes including tournament poker, live cash and app games. As one of your biggest fans, something like that would be one of the most engaging pieces of content that could be produced. Hope you are enjoying life and thanks for all the amazing content over the years
+100000
This is a great idea except I don't remember anything
Ben Sulsky Doug literally said you that you are the smartest guy to ever have played the game a year after your heads up match, then Phil Galfond said on a podcast recently that yourself, Ben86 and Berri were the only players he would refuse action on in the HUPLO challenge he played last year. You must be able to remember broadly remember what was going on across those timelines :-) Even the some information on the state of the games now, why you never transitioned to high stakes tourneys like Ike or why you never went to Macao to play in the juicy games when Durrr did. Also who your friends are in Poker. There are many of us on the site that would love to hear about all this stuff. You could even do an old school 'Well" type thing that all the legends did on 2+2 back in the day but in video format, where people submit questions.
eye opening video , thanks for the content.
Would love to see some more general thoughts on poker across different variants as opposed to just nlhe, especially if you’re not playing now that may be more fair game.
As for this specific video, I haven’t tried it, but I wonder if giving ip a very large raise could disincentivize the tiny bet or not. Just my first thought when it was set up. Because as-is making the tiny bet costs at most 45% of the original pot essentially, and the only downside of the tiny bet as I see it theoretically is reopening the action. But given only a 45% raise, that downside is not too bad. Given a much larger raise option for ip it might negate the power of the min bet a bit.
It's an OOP min bet so it's not reopening the action? I see your broader point though. It is possible that by altering the size the opponent can effectively bet from 33 and 75 to 45 only it is having that effect for a very small cost.
Yep, giving more raise options is likely to reduce the EV of the small bet somewhat.
Oh whoops it is oop! That's what I get for skimming, but yeah it still seems like you get my point holonomy. Like, we by betting 1bb, since ip can only raise 45% we effectively put a cap on the betting in this street by our opponent. And for 1bb that is worth it.
But if opponent has 100% raise or larger then we don't get that benefit from the min bet.
Thanks for the response
Dang. Was kind of sad to hear the intro. Have been watching the sauce vids since the beginning (like 2010 ish) and have learned SO much over the years. Thanks Ben.
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