2 Tables $2/$4 5 card PLO & 2 Tables $25/$50+ PLO
Posted by Phil Galfond
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it's a new game? where can I find it? :)
Stars and Full Tilt spread it in cash games and tournaments. Look for Omaha -> 5 card Omaha in the lobby.
Something wrong with the video atleast for me, took really long time loading first time and only lasted like 15 mins now it wont load at all :(
Has this been fixed, hidegreen? Let me or support know if not (by posting in the About Ri1 Forum or emailing support@runitonce.com)
Yes it worked the next day, it was only your video that I had problem with btw.
I had this problem once before with one of your videos on the first day that video was up, not really a problem more of a tease to see a new video up but not being able to watch it :) As we all know your videos are #betterthanporn so obv. I would like to not have to wait one day! Will try to watch your next video ASAP after it's uploaded and see if I get the same problem.
same her
One of my favorite videos yet! Absolutely love the live PLO action :) Thanks so much Phil!!!
Awesome. I was worried that people may not be interested in this, since I'm not an expert 5card player. Glad to hear mixing it up was appreciated!
Nice Video, I wonder how much edge a player can have at this game, it does look really fun but I'm not sure if it could be a primary game for someone given that it has tons of variance
Nadav, I don't have math to support this, but I'd guess the variance won't be as bad as you think. People (so far) seem to not get all-in preflop nearly as much, and play more cautiously in general. Once people start 3-betting a lot, the game could become ridiculous, as preflop equities run SO close that you can just get all-in pre with any decent hand and not get too punished for it.
People may adopt a VERY wide oop 4betting strategy at 100bb for this reason. Then the variance should shoot up.
@9:30 Top Right table, you cold 4bet a btn 3bet with AAKJhhss and get called.
Flop is 553hh with an SPR of 2. I understand your flop sizing in this spot, but I'm a bit curious why you chose to size turn so small, rather than just shove with SPR of 1. Obviously your hand is just crushing his range here, but it seems like with the majority(all?) of your range you'd just be shoving turn, so you should shove this hand too. Why do you think having a second bet size here is better than shoving with this hand? What other hands would you like to size turn this size with? Are you ever bet/folding?
@~30:00 Top right, you open btn KK53r get called by a weaker player, 200x eff.
Flop AKJ 2tone BB ch you bet BB ca
Tu To ch ch
River Ao
BB checks, you check behind saying there's not enough value. I assume your implying that this is a spot where you wouldn't bluff with like 9874r on river, so you can't get very wide. I'm tempted to disagree against a weaker player like this who is fairly likely to play his range pretty face up on the river. I think there are a lot of straight, JJ, some TT's that play this way that may call a river bet. Additionally, I don't think you have to be too worried about being exploited by ch/r bluffs given how protected your range is.
Curious to hear your thoughts on this.
jd,
Good questions.
The AAJJhhss hand, I go back and forth on what I believe to be "optimal." In this particular spot, the question is whether or not I want to have a bet-fold range, as you said. Against someone who jams flop with marginals and calls with monsters and weak FDs and gutters/pairs, I think I'd do well to bet smaller with some air (and therefore with some monsters).
KK53-
I agree that I am protected on this river and probably not getting check-raise bluffed because of it. I also shouldn't worry about this in general against a weaker player, and I should let him find a hero call. You're right.
I disagree with this part-
I know that I've been at the forefront of the now very strong "balance" movement, but I think that playing balanced against weaker players is a large mistake. Against someone who you expect to over-fold in a certain spot, you should bluff a lot and not VB thin. Against someone who over-calls, bluff very little and value bet wide.
If you're not exploiting a leak in your opponents for the sake of balance, you're leaving a ton of money on the table.
Really cool video - enjoyed the stream of consciousness on a familiar but new form of poker 'cas its always fun to hear you have to think about stuff you haven't had the chance to figure out yet. As far as 5-card PLO goes, my gut says you over-adjusted for a HU match (intuitively it seems like the 5th card won't alter relative hand strengths as much as you thought with only one opponent, but then I've played like 200 hands so could be WAY off). Regardless, very fun and I'm completely in agreement that villain's absurd 3-betting OOP has to have been a mistake, although I can well believe he's been printing money against a load of people by running them over.
On the PLO side, I was wondering if you could elaborate further on a river play you made against Azn_Baller at around the 6:00 mark. You checked back A87x on K8827 saying you didn't think there was much value which seemed a touch pessimistic to me (but then I tend to play in games where at least 1/3 of villains forgot to download the version of the client which includes a "Fold" button). Are you expecting him to bet his lower full houses and his big 8s for you meaning he has very little left that blocks the 8/can call?
Obviously I have no idea how these games play/Azn would react to this play, but my personal preference in spots like that where I know I have the best hand nearly always, the action is checked to me, and yet I don't think there's much value is to bet obnoxiously small (the reason being that it tilts the crap out of me when people do it against me, forcing me to spite-payoff or, worse, spite-spaz-bluff). The pot is >60bbs so I'm talking going <10 here - maybe like $300 into $3k. I can't really see a lot that villain can do 'cas folding is no worse for us than checking back (and could allow you to turn some hands like JJ into crazy cheap bluffs) whilst he simply won't have enough value hands to check/raise us here as a bluff (and if he does start to attack what he might perceive as a relatively weak range, he'll end up spewing to us). I also can't see it harming any of our other ranges 'cas we're either betting bigger w/ whatever your current betting range is (so totally unaffected) or checking back the portions of your current checking range that we're not gonna go tiny with (which doesn't hurt us 'cas although that range is weakened, our check ends the hand). So yeah, my gut is to make villain click a button and give us a little money to see our hand, although I'd be interested to see what you think of trying that (and how you'd respond to a villain who was betting so tiny OTR).
The only way I can see this not working is if you think he actually doesn't call anything worse and we'll simply cost ourselves an extra 6bbs + the chance to see his hand those times he is checking KK to us. But then surely we can just add in the bottom tiny % of your checking behind range to force him to call down (so turn TT into a bluff here and go for value w/ every good 8 or something. Combinatorics is hard work near midnight). I'm gonna stop rambling now, will be interested to hear (read: read) your thoughts on this play.
+1 to talking a bit more about the river there. I think you (phil) mentioned you'd double float sometimes with TT and surely want to make a v cheap bluff here for 300-600 when you have your dbl floats.
Hey Tom (and mplecki),
You bring up some interesting points. Namely, that I can bluff with TT after playing my hand this way. In my current game, I pretty much always show my TT down, as I'll have no K/8 blockers and he won't be betting QQ or JJ, so I'm only hoping to make him fold Kx or maybe AA.
I'm now questioning whether I should be turning TT into a bluff here, as it works well for my overall game. It's almost the bottom of my range to call twice, other than low pair floats (like 66) + clubs, basically. To be honest, I don't know what he'd do against a 1/3 with AK here. Probably call, which means I'm leaving money on the table checking this hand (which also means I should add some more bluffs into my range, and bet this river wider)
The only thing I'll add is that I view Azn as a very capable player, meaning I do fear a x/r bluff and I also very much expect KKxx to check this river.
Still, a close spot. Thanks for making me question this aspect of my game.
However, I'm not sure if he can have enough value hands to make this THAT difficult for us. If he's gonna check/pot KK and some bluffs, he can only bluff 1/2 as often as he has KK here (I think) and how much of his range is really KK?
I literally have no idea how to go about making a decent guess at that 'cas I've never played Azn or anyone remotely like him, but if feels like we should be fine 'cas my assumption is that, if he's barreling AA and AK (plus potentially some other Ks) as you suggested, he will have far more bluff-catchers/potential bluffs than top full houses, meaning that either he has to start bluffing too much (cool, we call) or bluffing some his bluff-catchers whilst bluff-catching or folding the rest which will still allow us to make money by either getting action w/ a wider value range OR getting him to fold when we have TT etc.
Also, some of his KK hands must have bet the river right (I assume he can't check all of them or he'll be capped which is probably not something he wants against a player like yourself)?
This play is clearly based upon the assumption that Azn's range is not weighted towards KK (or K8) and that it consists largely of bluff-catchers which could be completely wrong, but my gut suggests we should be able to extract value with a hand this strong by adding bluffs to our range.
One last thing, what do you expect him to do w/ A8 here/is he likely to check it to you OTR or just fire the third barrel for value?
Hey Tom,
I agree that he needs to occasionally bet KK here, and he also will almost always bet A8, I believe.
I think your points about his range are good ones, and that even if we do get raised here (regardless of how we handle it), we should be okay given how often we get value from AK/AA (a much larger portion of his range than boats).
I will start betting this spot wider :)
I think the live format was a little much for this video. There was a lot going on and especially with a new game there are a lot of considerations to make that are non-standard. At the end I also felt a little mentally exhausted. I enjoyed the video nonetheless and am looking forward to hearing your input on some of the rivered boat decisions you made as were addressed above.
IM,
I feel ya. Especially at the beginning, I thought this may not work out. After about 20 minutes, I'd planned on watching this back after finishing and potentially scrapping it, but since the regular PLO action ended up being pretty good, I thought it'd still make a great vid.
I've been happy with how most live videos have turned out lately, but I certainly will get back to plenty of pre-recorded vids.
Nice video as usual. Phil, is it possible to do maybe 6 max 2/4 and 3/6 PLO video? I don't think you made something similar to that format yet, although you did start out once doing 2/4 but then quickly switched to 25/50 :) . I think high stakes are great but for most of us, something smaller once in a while would be beneficial and something we can relate to.
Hey Vladamir, I will definitely get some lower stakes footage to review, either of myself playing or of a member. Thank you for the suggestion!
Watched the two minute preview, I thought this would be a good candidate for an essential video? Or perhaps the stakes make that impossible....
nice to see 5 card plo vid :)
2 questions :
- what is your color coding of opponents on stars ?
- u mentioned blog post about blind problem, i checked ur old blog, but last entry is from august, so wondering where i can find new blog ? i didnt find it here
My color coding is actually ridiculous and not helpful to anyone but me. I have people labeled based on various things, including how likely they are to start games/keep games going, passive/aggressive, how smart I think they are, and a general feel (once I started color coding, I just used the same colors for people who I viewed similarly overall to other regs already in that color). I also change the colors based on the game makeup to remind myself to adjust my preflop strategy based on the players behind me.
I'd rather not go too in depth, as I don't think it'll help, and it may offend some people :). (I have one color that simply means "dumb," for example)
My blog hasn't been updated in a long time, so you've found the right one. The post I was referring to was titled something along the lines of "Let's make some changes"
Phil, I just watched (again) your 5/10 and 10/20 6 max series from earlier and it was a masterpiece of educational value. I know I mentioned that 2/4 and 3/6 PLO would be nice to see, but if you could do something similar to the 5/10, 10/20 you did before, I am sure a lot of people will appreciate it.
Thanks, man. I will try to mix it up between all the stakes.
I would love some more 5card PLO!
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