Raising Turns in PLO (Part 3: Playing Against Capped Ranges)

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Raising Turns in PLO (Part 3: Playing Against Capped Ranges)

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Phil Galfond

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Aesah 11 years, 11 months ago
On the hand where you have second nuts with QTT6cc on the AKc2c8c4, what is the worst hand you would bet the river for value here? How relevant is Sauce's particular hand (9-high flush) being near the top of his range?
Gameking51 11 years, 11 months ago
Phil mentioned that he would go as low as J high flush for value and he explained that it is better to value bet thinly vs capped ranges, as they are unable to have a value (and thus bluff) raising range credibly on the river.

Sauce needs to call with at least 32 percent of his range on the river if he wants to protect himself against giving Phil a profitable bluff with any hand, and it makes sense to call with the top part of his range, which 9c4cxx definitely is given the line taken. You could say that Phil is polarised here, so it doesn't matter which bluffcatchers Sauce calls with, but he should still call with flushes rather than 2 pair/set (not that he has that many) as these block some flush combos making it more likely Phil is bluffing.
Munchausen 11 years, 11 months ago
The player with the "capped" or weaker range seems like he needs to take into account your x/r % into developing his call or 3-bet range. While his range might be weak, it may in fact be reasonable to play a higher % of his hands if your x/r range is too wide. While both sides may have detection issues, the concept of how to play when your range is capped and your opponent is overattacking it seems similar to how to play versus a maniac where your weaker playable hands may pick up a lot of value if your opponent is x/ring and bluffing too frequently. Additionally straightforward play picks up additional value.
Phil Galfond 11 years, 11 months ago
It's not necessarily over-attacking if I'm widening my value range greatly. Plus, I can bluff/semibluff and not get blown off my equity & get to make another big bet on the river with a wide/balanced range (meaning I will give up sometimes with air).
Munchausen 11 years, 11 months ago
Related point: in the sauce hand Q-flush vs 9-Flush you talk about how he is correct to call you down with a mid flush and how your value range could go to lower. I like the video but it seems that what you are describing is how to play versus your opponents' play rather then capped-ranges per se. Sauce for instance is not folding mid flushes because he knows your range is wide enough to be profitable to call down, but other players may perceive your range as tighter and may fold wider. In these instances, you make your money by bluffing and x/ring much wider (like some of your other examples - bluffing without a blocker etc.) The fact that your opponent may have a capped range is interesting but your opponents' play WITH the capped range informs what would be the proper way to attack.
Phil Galfond 11 years, 11 months ago
You're correct that we need to alter our play based on our opponent, but the fact that we're up against capped ranges means we can go wider for value against everyone (perhaps passive lines to induce work better against some very specific players). Against the players who fold more, we simply adjust by adding bluffs past the point of being balanced.
Nick Tang 11 years, 11 months ago
Hi Phil thanks for the video really enjoyed watching it. It made me think more about all my options on the turn.
In the last hand where u flop top set on three flush board three way out of position, I'm a bit confused as to why u think check raise on the turn is better than check call. I can understand the merits u mentioned by check raising ( fold equity and for deception when we river a boat), but isn't top set too strong a hand to turn into a bluff?
Also in general, when or what factors do u consider whether to check call on the turn out of position?
jonna102 11 years, 11 months ago
Great video Phil!

I was smiling as I watched through the video. Most of my opponents don't know that their ranges are capped, and these kinds of plays don't work anywhere near as well as they "should". So these concepts don't apply all that much to the games I play, but it's still enjoyable to watch this series.

It would be interesting so see an episode about raising turns against players who may not know so much about ranges and board textures (typical for lower stakes). What adjustments would you make to your turn raising strategy in that situation? Is it strictly a value game then, or can you still find spots to win when you're behind/chopping?
Dempire 11 years, 11 months ago
Phil you wanted to discuss what you think we should be doing with our middling hands that need protection after we check flop as the PFR. Here's my thoughts:

Against players who have high a turn x/r frequency I think we should just bet more polarised with say {slowplayed flop hands, turned big hands} and {weak draws, weak pairs} and look to check our middle strength hands like QQ on A44x. We want to check these hands because the advantage of protection betting is outweighed by the times we're bluffed or have to put in too much money with too weak a holding. I think this is esp good vs villains who will x/r wide for value and with little equity bluffs but choose to lead their draws.

By checking we also get to the river where we can control the number of bets that go in and use our position/informational advantage on a static board.

Also as an aside, if villains' turn c/r freq is too high compared to what is optimal we should definitely be looking to add to our flop slowplay range. Usually the best candidate hands for this are those which are strong absolutely on the flop (like trips weak kicker) but are crushed vs a typical flop value check/raise range. However if we can get plenty of bets in on future streets vs a wide range we should definitely consider checking back some flopped nutted hands.

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