Francisco Rocha12 years, 1 month agoHey Phil, I've already post this in another video but is also aplicable in this one because of the very first hand you play. Firs of all, is a pleasure to watch your videos again. I wish you the best of luck on this project. I have a question about frequencies... in spots where you don't have blockers in your hand and almost no backdoor equity (like in the firsr hand), how do you adjusts your bluffing frequencies. I mean, if you just decide to bluff considering only the board texture, you would be doing it every time (for example, evry time board paired on the turn) and that's unbalanced enought to be exploitable imo. Also, you may say that you make this bluffs with your worst hands and decide to not doing it with your medium streght hands, but if you do this you still gonna have a range with so much more air than value hands. Thanks in advance. Cheers
Phil Galfond12 years, 1 month agoGood question, Francisco. I'm not all the way balanced. I view a level of balance as important, especially against tough competition, and even moreso against regular competition. That said, yes, I decide to bluff often based simply on board textures and my read on my opponent and the situation, even if my hand doesn't necessarily "warrant" a bluff.
Francisco Rocha12 years, 1 month agowell, not exactly like tha hand in the other video because here you have a gutshot... but suppose you dont have
nodejo12 years, 1 month agoGreat video, but at 1:07:00 on 65555 board AA is not the nuts, 66 is right? Just saying, don't want u to keep reraising on the river vs Isildur in this situation :p
mason88 12 years, 1 month agoat 8:00 mark, on AJ2ss, turn 2, you talk about bluffing the turn, why did you choose to bet 270 into 300 instead of something like 200 or smaller? On the river if he calls, why do you think bluffing high spades are good?(except A of spades) Because he rarely peels the turn without nut spades and high spades are essentially blocking their potential J,Q,K hi flushes?
Phil Galfond12 years, 1 month agoExactly. I felt he didn't have many flushes, and the high spades block some of his more likely flushes. In addition, it's very hard for me to have missed on a high spade, since it completes almost every conceivable draw. On a low spade, it's much easier for me to have a missed wrap or gutter.
As far as the sizing, I generally tend to bet larger when stacks are deeper. I get to build pots bigger when my range is stronger than theirs, and since we are deep, I don't risk them being able to just jam and blow me off of my equity.
JohanB12 years, 1 month agoAnother great video Phil! I really hope you continue to make more PLO videos. The quality of the videos is amazing, but there seems to be little PLO content. It really seams like you get better and better at making vids, GJ :D
mason88 12 years, 1 month agoat 39:00 min mark, bottom left, 927cc, what is your plan if you get raised smallish like 250, you peel most of the time right?
If this was a 3bet pot, same spot oop, where you bet and get called on flop, turn Js bringing backdoor flush, what is your plan ? Do you still bet if spr<2? spr>3? I often find myself in situations where I have an overpair and/or my opponents perceive me to have an overpair in spots like these. If you actually have an overpair in these spot with something else, do you like to still bet ?
Agree with Johan, great PLO videos n great quality, and hope that you focus more on plo content as there are already a lot of NL content IMO. GJ, and thx.
If I get raised smallish, I would peel and be very unhappy about it, readless. I could be swayed towards a happy peel or a happy fold given reads. Peeling here may even be a leak readless, as it's a hand that's so difficult to play OOP on future streets. Not having the Ac hurts me, not only because I'd miss bluffing opportunity, but because I now have 1 nut out on the turn instead of 2 (more significant than most people think).
Your 3b pot questions are tough, because, well, those are really tough spots. I guess that's why you're asking :)
I hate to just say "it depends on your opponent" because that's a bit of a copout. It is true though, that you need to have an idea of how often opponents will stab with hands they're willing to fold to a x/r, and how thinly they will bet-call.
With an SPR <2, it's very tough to continue with your hand w/ anything other than potting it. Not that potting it is the best play, but it may be with most anything you can go with. Betting smaller allows your opponent to call and play rivers in position, which is a small disaster for us on a board this draw heavy, or it gives them the option to get it in now if they want to. Potting denies them good pot odds, and takes some of the choice out of their hands. If they want to play, they are being charged the max to see a river IP.
Now, unfortunately, we have a ton of hands that would like to see a river, but don't want to get all in now. With an SPR of 2, I think that's just too bad for us... pot control isn't really an option anymore. I'd rather deny him his equity than the other way around.
With an SPR > 3, now we can start to have a bet-folding range, and a x/c and x/r range. With our exact hand, I might like a x/decide depending on his sizing. I'd expect most people to check back a good amount of the time, and we do have plenty of OP+FD hands or better to x/r and x/x him with. We don't really want to put another bet in, so let's hope it checks through, but we'll call a small one if we have to, potentially turning our hand into a bluff on certain rivers (spades, most obviously).
With low equity draws (single FD no other eq), especially with blockers, I like betting around 70% pot and continuing to bluff on some brick rivers. Obviously, I'd also do that with strong hands (split between betting and x/r ranges).
I hope that's somewhat helpful. It really is a very tough spot to navigate.
Kirbynator12 years, 1 month agoOn the a53 hand seems like a hard sell to me when you checkraise.Extremely unlikely you flopped a set and you kind of represent 97 and 99 only or hands like the one you had. Seems like a pretty easy spot for him this deep to 3bet bluff you with a LOT, especially any rag hands on his big blind that contain blocker cards like the 7 or 2. Also think you dont always raise 97 here reducing even more your made hands. Do you think people are too scared to get shoved on by mega draws if they 3bet you or something?
Though I don't rep much, I simply am not going to have many hands that I'm not comfy betting but have the right amount of eq (not nothing, but not enough to x/c) to go ahead and turn into x/r bluffs. I'm always comfortable taking a hand that I want to x/r and going ahead with it when I know my actual bluff range is tiny, even if I'm not repping much.
I guess we just need to be careful getting carried away with adding too many hands into this range.
JasonCrest12 years, 1 month agoIn the hand vs DP at 30min what kind of hand you bluff with otr? Looks like we dont have a bluffing range at all here, right?!
Phil Galfond12 years, 1 month agoWhen we have JT63? There are a ton of air hands I can show up with here. My flop range is somewhat polarized, so even if I only continue to barrel occasionally on the turn, I'll have enough 1pair or missed gutter/turned oesd type hands to have a comfortably large bluffing range.
Phil Galfond12 years, 1 month agoThanks for the great feedback, and keep the questions coming! I just got back to the US, visiting some family and friends for my birthday (MrSweets28 is now 28). I'll get to all of these as soon as I have some time!
brahsworld8412 years, 1 month agoQuestion On the AJ2ss 2 where u fired the "non-standard" 2nd shell, was part of wisdom in that being that your button range will be a lot wider than the defender in blind so the 2 pairing *can make you trips whereas likely blind won't be playing many 2s, not to mention a decent chunk of his AAxx hands will 3b, leaving his range mostly draws which depreciate on the board pairing as well as him being left with like Ax hands that will be uncomfortable against an uncapped range oop on turn & river, also "looks" like a bad double so it's kinda good right ?
Enjoyed the vid & learning PLO on RIO def helping me tackle learning another game
You're exactly right. I have more trips combos, and more boat combos... I think DP 3bets wide enough and expects me to 4bet wide enough that he shouldn't have a lot of his AAxx combos in his BB calling range. Not to mention that many of them will raise the flop, thinking he's not repping much and I'll go crazy on him... he'd be right :)
Fin_dont_lose12 years, 1 month agoAwesome vid as always. I really enjoy it when you get very much into detail explaining everything very deeply. Keep up the great work Phil and best wishes for 2013!
50km12 years, 1 month agoPhil, I'm not convinced that playing small double paired hands are profitable, It seems like the reverse implied odds are so high when you hit. There was a hand early on in the vid where it came KT4dd and you had 3344, isn't their get it in range monster draws or better sets? Please convince me otherwise thanks.
Brian Rast12 years, 1 month agoBravo for your "long explanation of a turn continuation bet" (beginning of video about 3344 hand). It's exactly these rambles that I think has always made your videos excellent. Poker is a complicated game, and you get through the meat and to the marrow of how to play hands and ranges - and it's often times in these reveries where I find you give your best and most profound lessons. A great explanation as to why this is a good and deceptive hand to barrel with. Thanks!
Brian Rast12 years, 1 month agoabout 36 minutes in you play a hand vs Odd KJT4r. On the turn he checks KT96r, and you go ahead and bet the turn. You did talk through it a bit... first providing a lot of (convincing) reasons to check back... then you provide some reasons that you bet. I'm pretty unconvinced that this is a bet - but would like to be if I am wrong - as I'm sure it will teach me.
Here are some of the reasons you mentioned to bet: "board is draw-heavy enough to protect, he's in a spot he can't check/jam with many bluffs/semi-bluffs, there are worse hands that can check call, and we have decent equity when he check calls with KTQ."
As I see it, It seems the #1 reason to check is that you're in a spot where most of the hands better than you (any set or straight) will call - in fact I can't see him c/f KT (which ties us) or better. And many of the hands weaker than you will fold. i.e. - there is little actual value to betting. And our hand is too strong to bluff with. And while I agree that there are hands that CAN check/call - I don't think there are many given our opponent's line. First, I don't think he's cr with a ton of two pair hands on the flop - and even the ones that he did - the King is a terrible card for a hand like 986x like you mention, and even if he has enough equity to call a bet against our range - given that he's oop with a hand that can't improve much against a tough opponent, with still the river to play, it's a pretty standard fold in his spot i feel like without some kind of reads vs you. (is this incorrect?). To me this is the primary consideration with our particular hand (a hand with value) - and I feel like we are turning our hand into a bluff by betting often here by folding out most of our opponent's range that we are ahead of, and keeping in possibly 100% of our opponent's range that beats us. (the only one of these hands that I feel like can find a call would be the flopped 2pair with J8, like Jt98 or J986)
And without a flush draw on the board and with you having a jack in your hand, there is surprisingly little to protect - for an omaha hand - , so i find the idea that the board is really draw heavy and we should protect to be not very convincing. 986x has 8 outs, T86x has 6 outs (and 2 gin cards).
That leaves the idea that he's in a tough spot to check/jam with bluffs & semi-bluffs - which is true, it doesn't seem likely he will do this - and that protects our bet in the sense that we rarely get bluffed off our hand when we bet. This to me is a good supporting reason to bet, but is one of those ancillary concerns when concerning a play on the whole.
Another reason to bet, in my mind, is that checking back definitely defines your hand quite a bit, and doesn't allow you to continue repping the strongest part of your range. Face-upping our hand and defining our range like this is usually not a good idea against a smart opponent... however, two mitigating factors for this are that 1) we are in position & 2) once we check back we go to the river and have only 1 betting street remaining. We are in a spot where when we check back - the most pressure our opponent can put is to pot the river - and then we decide in position whether or not he's bluffing.
And so, if you are going to bet here than i think it'd be better to have hands that are weaker that ours - such as AJ98 - to be in your semi-bluffing range here on the turn.... and then be value betting with 666+, or possibly also with KT but without a queen or jack... like AKT6 for example... a hand which, without the Q/J, has a lot more to protect vs. our opponent.
Zachary Freeman12 years, 1 month agoI also agree that turn in that hand seemed better to check. Also, I found the flop call perhaps too light given most of the 2pr outs we hit complete common draws and we only have 4 clean outs to the nuts. If its a pure float given you think he is attacking that flop often so be it.
pacmang12 years, 1 month agoHi Phil. Nice video. really enjoyed this one! Probably since the stakes are very relevant for me.
I have a question regarding the 3344 hand where you made a boat on the river it was KT466 I believe and we bet turn and river after flop checked through. Pot is 315 and you chose 185. Can you elaborate on your reasoning behind 185? or is that just your default. Its a spot where we are pretty polarized so wouldn't a bigger size be appropriate? (still confused about sizing ;P)
Also in this video I recall several occasions where you limped the SB with mediocre hands. Is this something new that you started doing? If so, can you elaborate a bit on your game plan? I've been thinking about this play but wondering how would you balance? Would you have a limp/call, fold, rereaise range? What do you think about limping a high % of hands vs. habitual 3bettors and only going for limp/call and limp/reraise?
Thanks again Phil
Andrew Sweeney12 years, 1 month agoI started learning plo one year ago mainly by watching and re watching your old vids on some site i don't remember since it's prob no good any more :D . I just want to say that you have evolved A LOT as a teacher . Now you give the pros and cons of every possible outcome for each spot and it's really refreshing.
Murzilka12 years, 1 month agoHi Phil. Thank you for another great video.
At 50 min mark, hand vs DonkPredator. Jt8 flop 4bet pot.
What do you think about check back on Predators place with his hand. If he goes All-in against you on the flop, his equity not so good, but after check, he can play well turn and river, and also, when he catch his outs you can bluff with AAxx, AKKx hands.
What about flatting the flop in your JT4x hand in a 3b 3way pot on T54cc board. I think villain's range will be superdraw heavy, so putting the rest of the money in on safe turns could be better than just folding it right now. It feels a lil bit like you're wasting EV there.
GoSu811 years, 11 months agoHello Phil, thank you for your new vids! I learned a ton from your old vids on Bluefirepoker, and that's where I started my PLO. In Jan 2012, I also played some hands together with you on PLO10K, and it's really exciting. Having watched your new vids, and I can feel that your understanding on PLO has reached another level! Hope you continue to provide nice vids with deep thought process, good luck on your NB tables!!
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As far as the sizing, I generally tend to bet larger when stacks are deeper. I get to build pots bigger when my range is stronger than theirs, and since we are deep, I don't risk them being able to just jam and blow me off of my equity.
If this was a 3bet pot, same spot oop, where you bet and get called on flop, turn Js bringing backdoor flush, what is your plan ? Do you still bet if spr<2? spr>3? I often find myself in situations where I have an overpair and/or my opponents perceive me to have an overpair in spots like these. If you actually have an overpair in these spot with something else, do you like to still bet ?
Agree with Johan, great PLO videos n great quality, and hope that you focus more on plo content as there are already a lot of NL content IMO. GJ, and thx.
If I get raised smallish, I would peel and be very unhappy about it, readless. I could be swayed towards a happy peel or a happy fold given reads. Peeling here may even be a leak readless, as it's a hand that's so difficult to play OOP on future streets. Not having the Ac hurts me, not only because I'd miss bluffing opportunity, but because I now have 1 nut out on the turn instead of 2 (more significant than most people think).
Your 3b pot questions are tough, because, well, those are really tough spots. I guess that's why you're asking :)
I hate to just say "it depends on your opponent" because that's a bit of a copout. It is true though, that you need to have an idea of how often opponents will stab with hands they're willing to fold to a x/r, and how thinly they will bet-call.
With an SPR <2, it's very tough to continue with your hand w/ anything other than potting it. Not that potting it is the best play, but it may be with most anything you can go with. Betting smaller allows your opponent to call and play rivers in position, which is a small disaster for us on a board this draw heavy, or it gives them the option to get it in now if they want to. Potting denies them good pot odds, and takes some of the choice out of their hands. If they want to play, they are being charged the max to see a river IP.
Now, unfortunately, we have a ton of hands that would like to see a river, but don't want to get all in now. With an SPR of 2, I think that's just too bad for us... pot control isn't really an option anymore. I'd rather deny him his equity than the other way around.
With an SPR > 3, now we can start to have a bet-folding range, and a x/c and x/r range. With our exact hand, I might like a x/decide depending on his sizing. I'd expect most people to check back a good amount of the time, and we do have plenty of OP+FD hands or better to x/r and x/x him with. We don't really want to put another bet in, so let's hope it checks through, but we'll call a small one if we have to, potentially turning our hand into a bluff on certain rivers (spades, most obviously).
With low equity draws (single FD no other eq), especially with blockers, I like betting around 70% pot and continuing to bluff on some brick rivers. Obviously, I'd also do that with strong hands (split between betting and x/r ranges).
I hope that's somewhat helpful. It really is a very tough spot to navigate.
Thanks for the questions and the kind feedback.
good vid
Though I don't rep much, I simply am not going to have many hands that I'm not comfy betting but have the right amount of eq (not nothing, but not enough to x/c) to go ahead and turn into x/r bluffs. I'm always comfortable taking a hand that I want to x/r and going ahead with it when I know my actual bluff range is tiny, even if I'm not repping much.
I guess we just need to be careful getting carried away with adding too many hands into this range.
Enjoyed the vid & learning PLO on RIO def helping me tackle learning another game
You're exactly right. I have more trips combos, and more boat combos... I think DP 3bets wide enough and expects me to 4bet wide enough that he shouldn't have a lot of his AAxx combos in his BB calling range. Not to mention that many of them will raise the flop, thinking he's not repping much and I'll go crazy on him... he'd be right :)
Here are some of the reasons you mentioned to bet: "board is draw-heavy enough to protect, he's in a spot he can't check/jam with many bluffs/semi-bluffs, there are worse hands that can check call, and we have decent equity when he check calls with KTQ."
As I see it, It seems the #1 reason to check is that you're in a spot where most of the hands better than you (any set or straight) will call - in fact I can't see him c/f KT (which ties us) or better. And many of the hands weaker than you will fold. i.e. - there is little actual value to betting. And our hand is too strong to bluff with. And while I agree that there are hands that CAN check/call - I don't think there are many given our opponent's line. First, I don't think he's cr with a ton of two pair hands on the flop - and even the ones that he did - the King is a terrible card for a hand like 986x like you mention, and even if he has enough equity to call a bet against our range - given that he's oop with a hand that can't improve much against a tough opponent, with still the river to play, it's a pretty standard fold in his spot i feel like without some kind of reads vs you. (is this incorrect?). To me this is the primary consideration with our particular hand (a hand with value) - and I feel like we are turning our hand into a bluff by betting often here by folding out most of our opponent's range that we are ahead of, and keeping in possibly 100% of our opponent's range that beats us. (the only one of these hands that I feel like can find a call would be the flopped 2pair with J8, like Jt98 or J986)
And without a flush draw on the board and with you having a jack in your hand, there is surprisingly little to protect - for an omaha hand - , so i find the idea that the board is really draw heavy and we should protect to be not very convincing. 986x has 8 outs, T86x has 6 outs (and 2 gin cards).
That leaves the idea that he's in a tough spot to check/jam with bluffs & semi-bluffs - which is true, it doesn't seem likely he will do this - and that protects our bet in the sense that we rarely get bluffed off our hand when we bet. This to me is a good supporting reason to bet, but is one of those ancillary concerns when concerning a play on the whole.
Another reason to bet, in my mind, is that checking back definitely defines your hand quite a bit, and doesn't allow you to continue repping the strongest part of your range. Face-upping our hand and defining our range like this is usually not a good idea against a smart opponent... however, two mitigating factors for this are that 1) we are in position & 2) once we check back we go to the river and have only 1 betting street remaining. We are in a spot where when we check back - the most pressure our opponent can put is to pot the river - and then we decide in position whether or not he's bluffing.
And so, if you are going to bet here than i think it'd be better to have hands that are weaker that ours - such as AJ98 - to be in your semi-bluffing range here on the turn.... and then be value betting with 666+, or possibly also with KT but without a queen or jack... like AKT6 for example... a hand which, without the Q/J, has a lot more to protect vs. our opponent.
I have a question regarding the 3344 hand where you made a boat on the river it was KT466 I believe and we bet turn and river after flop checked through. Pot is 315 and you chose 185. Can you elaborate on your reasoning behind 185? or is that just your default. Its a spot where we are pretty polarized so wouldn't a bigger size be appropriate? (still confused about sizing ;P)
Also in this video I recall several occasions where you limped the SB with mediocre hands. Is this something new that you started doing? If so, can you elaborate a bit on your game plan? I've been thinking about this play but wondering how would you balance? Would you have a limp/call, fold, rereaise range? What do you think about limping a high % of hands vs. habitual 3bettors and only going for limp/call and limp/reraise?
Thanks again Phil
At 50 min mark, hand vs DonkPredator. Jt8 flop 4bet pot.
What do you think about check back on Predators place with his hand. If he goes All-in against you on the flop, his equity not so good, but after check, he can play well turn and river, and also, when he catch his outs you can bluff with AAxx, AKKx hands.
What about flatting the flop in your JT4x hand in a 3b 3way pot on T54cc board. I think villain's range will be superdraw heavy, so putting the rest of the money in on safe turns could be better than just folding it right now. It feels a lil bit like you're wasting EV there.
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