Phil Shakes Off The Rust - Live $10/$20a PLO (part 2)
Posted by Phil Galfond
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Hand at 6 min top right, whats your plan for other rivers?
Then 16 min. I find myself c/c the top left more than c/r there since there are so many bad turns when we get flatted. How do you play 3,7,6,8 turns? And as played it seems like rarely win this pot when he bets turn.
K643 at 6 minutes: I'll be checking and deciding on almost every river. I think that betting an offsuit 5 is probably good, as well as sometimes betting when I fill up. The only rivers I may turn this hand into a bluff on would be board pairing rivers that don't fill me up.
Top left w/ KQT5 - I just answered this below before looking at your question, but I don't love my play. I x/c normally. I probably would have to check those scary turns and figure it out from there, usually calling a medium sized bet and crying on rivers :)
Great vid as always, Phil. It was painful to watch you running out of timebank, though! (It has been happening a lot to myself lately.)
I have tons of questions, and would be great if you could answer to some of them.
1) Check-raising dry two pairs on flop
There were two similar hands in game, where you flopped dry two pair (top two once, and top and bottom another). First of all, around 15:00 you decided to x/r this hand:
And you mentioned you won't love getting this in.
Later on, around 44:30, you just check-called with top and bottom on a similar board texture:
My question is twofold:
a) When you x/r dry T5 on that flop (T54r), what is the best possible outcome for us? If he calls, it seems like there are very few really good turn cards for us; anything that's not K/Q and maybe J put us in awkward spot with SPR=2 ish (please correct me if I am wrong). But if he bet/folds on flop, those hands likely didn't have much equity against our 2p.. so do we really want him to fold those? (I guess if we get 3b we just have to make a decision depending on many factors.)
That said, do you think there is any merit for waiting for better turns with this specific hand, while still x/r'ing with better top two, say T765 and stuff? And if your x/r gets called, what turns would you be getting away with folding, and those that you wouldn't, would you just pot/call off? I know, this is a very broad question :(
b) We are often told that top two warrants a value raise, while top and bottom are too weak for that. However, on flops like T32r, I'm just not sure if T3 and T2 will differ a lot in terms of hand strength. If T3 is strong enough to value raise, isn't T2 just as good? It's not like he's gonna have a ton of hands that beat T2 and lose to T3 (practically, there is none). I guess we could pull off a frequency argument (i.e. we would be x/r'ing too much if we x/r T2), but is it really relevant?
Playing dry top two and sometimes top and bottom is something I have been struggled a lot with lately, both in terms of what I'm gonna do against a flop 3b, and how I'm gonna play future streets. I'm curious to hear your opinions on this!
(I don't want to post a reply with like 7 screenshots, so I'll post one question at a time.)
These are some very tough questions, Midori. Good job!
a) With the KQT5, I was going to unhappily get AI on the flop - meaning that I raise with this hand to strengthen my raising range and to give me more hands I can go with, but I don't think it's doing fantastically well against a shove or small 3-bet range (just well enough to shove with).
So, the best case scenario is that he 3-bet bluffs flop and folds to a 4-bet :)
Otherwise, the best case scenario is that we get two bets in on the flop against T4 or 54 or dry AA or AKQT. That said, the turn will be awkward on most cards.
Had my hand been a worse top two hand, then there would be some benefit in making him fold high equity hands (midpair + overs) but that doesn't really apply here when I block two overcards and I improve my hand somewhat on the other two.
To be honest, I don't love the play - I make plays like this as "toughness plays" to strengthen certain ranges such that they can handle raises and improve on certain turn cards where I feel under-represented, but I think it may very well cost some EV.
I'd like the play a little bit more in a situation where I didn't block the overcards, as a more pure protection play. Your example of choosing T765 is a much better hand than KQT5 for this - more value and more protection.
b) I think that you can't ignore the fact that with T3, we beat 2/2 of the other two pair hands and with T2 we beat 1/2. Two pair makes up a non-negligible part of a bet-call range.
To be honest, I haven't played around with ranges enough to give you a satisfactory answer here. I've been making the distinction between top two and top and bottom for years in my play, and perhaps you're right that it's taken for granted. If you're raising to get AI (like in the above hand) there is obviously a large difference.
Phil,
When you said you didn't love the play, I presume you were considering check/calling as well (unless you had donking flop in mind).
Thing is, when we have KQT5 on T54r board, our T5 won't be top two on almost any turns (3/2 puts a straight on the board). 8-6 are also bad for our hand, as well as an A. That said, are we mostly check/folding unimproved on turn, if he ~pots again? Also, on K/Q/J and maybe on 9 turn, on which we improve, what would your plan be?
More specifically, would you consider donking on any turns? I thought about it but it doesn't seem to make much sense because we shouldn't have a significant range advantage on many turn cards (correct me if I am wrong).
2) (Semi-) bluffing
There were two hands that I thought were similar.
Hand one (around 37:30) below, we 3b pre and check twice on flop and turn.
You mentioned you could lead the turn with Qh blocker but opted not to, saying that hands that will fold to your bet will have very little equity anyway. However, I wasn't sure if I could fully understand that. Since we are probably not gonna x/c on this turn (again, I might be wrong on this, but I personally wouldn't), isn't it better anyway to fold those hands, which he might be bluffing with if we check again (to which we might have to fold)?
Not to mention that we can sometimes barrel through on blank rivers, depending on how we think he plays his stronger flushes.
Now, the next hand around 27:30, where you 3b pre and checked flop:
First off, we have tons of backdoor draws on this flop, and I don't think Q52r strongly favours his calling range (although we shouldn't have tons of 2p+ either). That said, how about just betting flop and taking it from there? Or do you think you just get flatted a ton and left in awkward spots on many turns?
Secondly, on the turn you decide to bet/jam at SPR=10 ish. The play worked out well, and I'm not too familiar with these spots because (I think) I usually bet the flop with hands like this, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. So when he raised us, did you think he wouldn't have checked back many 43 combos on flop, and thus just has lots of air? Or, you shouldn't have lots of 43 here either, so maybe he could be picking on that?
I guess he raised small and that could be why, but frankly I haven't made plays like this much at all, so I'd like to learn something new!
AAK(Qh) - I think I could very easily end up overbluffing if I choose to bet here, especially since some of my flushes will want to x/c or x/r. Given that I'll have very few sets/straights/2pr, I think he can peel with all 2pr and some 1pr+oesd (depending how I size the turn bet). This may set up a profitable river bluff, sure, but the cost of getting there is expensive.
His folding range (1pr or worse with no oesd) doesn't have much equity, so I'd rather bluff the same spot without AA (AKQJ Qh).
K987ds - I tend to check most of my range on 2-wheel card flops, unless we are under 60bb or so because then I have a lot of AA4 and AA3 that I can go with. I haven't done a proper amount of math to back this up, but intuitively it seems like he will have so many 1pr+gutter or better that it'll work out really poorly for my air (and not great for dry AA either). In addition, he can peel with all TP, all 43, some dry gutters and some dry pairs with backdoor draws. Now, on top of that, he can value raise wide (including some Q764 merge-stuff) and can bluff-raise a lot.
I just think these flops suck for my range, even though I try my best to include the double suited low cards when I can.
On the turn, I think that I once again shouldn't have much of a betting range (and will often be x/f). I do think that most 43 combos of his would have bet the flop, but I'm fairly readless on this player so I can't be sure. I decided to bet because I view this hand as nearly the top of my range. I shoved because I think most people will assume I bet this turn more than I do, and may try to take advantage of the fact that if I bet often it would leave my range extremely weak.
Just seemed like a very likely bluff spot for him and my strongest possible semi-bluff hand on this board. I thought about calling, but I didn't want to let his bluffs realize their (very high) equity - my hand does pretty well against the top of his range and pretty poorly against the bottom of his range (as far as hands in my range are concerned) so it's a spot where I'd rather push harder and use the FE I can pick up.
Phil,
Thanks for your detailed replies, I learned a lot from them.
Here are my follow-up comments, if you wouldn't mind:
a) I agree that his folding range doesn't have much equity, but by checking again on turn we give him a chance to bluff with those folding range, which we probably can't call with our naked overpair. That said, isn't it possible that we'd rather go ahead and fold those bluffs with hands like this? Of course, if we keep doing this then we'd end up overbluffing, but let's just think about it in a vacuum.
b) When you said below:
Did you specifically mean the spots where he's gonna raise flop with them? When stacks are deep and we can't have 2p+ very often on flop, it's true that our live becomes hell we over c-bet and they raise a lot. I was just wondering, though, if this will hold true if they flat a lot instead.
I kind of think that it can be an even more efficient play on boards like this, where we can't pick up THAT much equity on most turns. For example, on this Q52r flop, we can pick up 2p+ on turns 9 or higher, but so can he; on turns 8 or lower, I think he would have a range advantage. Because of this, I think I'd prefer flatting a lot on flops when I'm the 3-bet caller IP, with the intention of raising some turns, stabbing if he checks to us, sometimes floating again, etc.
Sorry for the rambling - my question is, if you had those 1pr+gutter or better in his shoes, would you continue by flatting or raising?
3) Nut flushes, sometimes the nuts, others times nots (terrible pun I know)
There were two hands where nut flushes in your range were quite relevant.
First hand around 18:45, flop was checked through and you called YaAaRnY's turn probe. He checks to us on the river.
You were debating on sizing, whether to pot or bet smaller. Here, my question is:
a) What is the weakest flush you will value bet? (I am assuming that you check SDV's weaker than flushes, hope that's a fair assumption.)
b) If you value bet J/T high flushes in addition to your nut flushes, would you consider having multiple sizings, or just bet the same amount with all your flushes? Of course that will depend on the exact breakdown of your range, but let's say you have each of them at a reasonably similar frequency.
My usual approach would be betting pot with my nuts and nut blockers, and smaller with weaker flushes, but I've noticed this can pose 2 problems. Firstly, if my opponent is observant enough, he can exploit this in a couple of ways, namely x/r'ing a ton against my smaller bet, etc. Secondly, I have to split my other bluffs (say, AQ75cc) into different sizings, which would be a lot of work.
That said I was thinking, maybe I can just choose a single sizing with all my hands and make it easier to construct my range, probably at the expense of sacrificing some EV. What do you think about it?
Now, the second hand around 14:00 where you had the nut blocker on turn. You x/r'ed this flop, bet the turn and the board pairs on the river.
I agree that we can have boats in this spot. Just one question: would you consider value betting your nut flushes here? He probably doesn't have a lot of sets because he would have played them differently on flop, and even less naked 2p's. So when he calls flop and turn, I guess his range contains a ton of flushes.
If you check on the river, I don't think he will turn them into a bluff very often (he could with some boat blockers, but rarely). He probably won't bluff raise either, by the same logic. Then, how about just betting again with our nut flushes and hoping to get called? At first it seems too thin, but is it really?
Sorry for dumping all these questions, sometimes my curiosity kills me! :)
-- midori
AA82dd - I definitely have multiple sizings. I think it's a fine way to play, and that your smaller flushes (and smaller blockers) can go in your smaller sizing range. It's just important that you keep your nut flush (and maybe NF blocker) at some frequency in each range.
I think that choosing one sizing is a simpler approach and could work out fine, especially since it's rare that you find opponents who x/r without the nuts or nut blocker, even against smaller sizings.
AKT5 - I think in the heat of battle I would need either a 9 or T or mayyyybe a 2 in my hand to value bet the nut flush on the river. It might work out well with more than that for the reasons you mentioned: given the flop action, he loses a chunk of his boat+ combos. However, it's kinda tough to get called by worse - I would want some kind of blocker to be bluffing this river spot, and my range for getting here is quite strong.
If you look in my range for dry As and/or dry Tx, you wouldn't find a ton that got here this way, and in the actual hand I decided to follow through because I held both of them. If I decided to x/r flop with J8 or KQJ with a spade, it would be scarier to barrel off because I block some of his straight draws and weaker flushes (my target) rather than his boats.
Another great vid. One question at ~47:15
You fold the 9 high flush to a half-pot bet without talking about it since the hand on the bottom left was such an interesting spot. Is this standard? Is it close to call on river and evaluate?
Yes. Phil could you comment this in few words.
midori, it's interesting what you are asking, but a bit too much questions for 1vid or too long how you asked them, try to be shorter next time, just my opinion,
I think they were very well thought out questions and worthwhile. Yes they were long and I don't think Phil should be obligated to answer every one of them but I'd rather have them there unanswered than not having them at all.
Hi Watchtheee,
I'm sorry if my questions distracted you. I tend to ramble a bit, hence my long questions. There were a couple of spots where I couldn't fully understand Phil's play, and thus I wanted to hear more about his thought process. After all, isn't that how we learn from Pros?
Also, as Zach pointed out, I don't expect to always get answers when asking these questions. For me, part of the learning process lies in asking these questions, so even if they remain unanswered, I would have already learned something. Fortunately for us, Phil is usually kind enough to answer to all of them, but I don't think he "owes" us anything. Just wanted to make that clear.
And thanks for your kind words, Zach.
-- midori
At 4:00 and 13:00 you check raise bluff the flop, bet turn, and check give up on a river that you will be value betting with some portion of your range. It seemed to me in both hands you were in the bottom of your range, with the second, (although not the absolute bottom), conatining all pertinent blockers. Despite the fact that your opponents ranges were very string on both rivers, how are you maintaining an efficient strategy in these spots by not betting these hands?
hey phil,
at 47:00 you folded a 9 high flush on top right on the turn to one bet. I assume thats a misread ?
Also at 31.30 when you call 4 bet with 2459, if jeans 5 bets and yarny calls are you calling? is this something to think about when calling cold calling 4 bet, or maybe you know jeans doesn't have that play in that spot?
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