HRC does only preflop calculations, so the raise range is assumed to confront with the call range to a check down scenario postflop. This leaves SB and BB playing extremely loose preflop strategies.
Your analysis of Byron's A5cc shove @ 15:55 is based on him having 16bb but the graphics indicate that the bb is 600k. His decision to shove seems a lot more clear for 13bb when there is a big ante.
Ben Sulsky can we talk more in depth about these type of spots where we would like to deny equity and how our size & freq should change on different textures?(Doesn’t have to be in tournament format - I actually would prefer non-ICM influenced theory discussion)
NoM, I'd guess somebody like Diego has some content on that. In general, betting volume increases a lot when the "air" section of ranges has 6+ TP outs.
excellent video. 10x better than the first part imo. loved the in depth analysis about little things I would never even consider when watching this footage.
Kaverman's open fold of 88 from CO was horrendous. It was good to point out that the ICM figures are too tight, as some people take them as Gospel. It seems like a clear open shove. Due to the bubble and the chip leader being in the BB, I wouldn't mess around with raising or limping, but open fold has to be the worst option. If Einhorn was significantly shorter than Kaverman, then folding might be possible. There is some point that Einhorn might make some mistakes and bust, which is what happened. If Kaverman had played the hand in any way, it is pretty certain he would have gii against Einhorn's AQ preflop.
agreed. I think that Ben is maybe being a little too nice. that 88 fold was terrible really. and even though these guys play $1 mill buy ins they aren't exactly the best players in the world. I mean if you let the likes of Linus, OTB, Trueteller study tournaments for even a couple of weeks they would be the best players in these fields.
and there are hundreds of tournament/cash regs just as good, if not better than these guys who play online but just don't have backers or don't want the variance of playing in these.
I know it's good for the advertisement to say x amount of the best players in the world, playing the highest buy in in the world come together to battle it out for millions of $. but in reality these are decent, but not amazing, players who are still making lots of mistakes. I mean someone on an $11 FT would know to jam that 88 hand. and it doesn't matter that the min cash is for $2 million, that is letting human emotion dictate your poker actions and that is not what an elite player should let happen. as the min cash is only 2x the buy in, doesn't matter that it's 2 million its 2x the buy in. you are join last in chips and with a very strong hand in late position.
fwiw I think Einhorn HAS to fold that AQo hand vs a Kaverman jam. even though he is a rec I still feel like he would find the fold.
agreed with almost everything demondoink but not on the part you say AQo has to fold to a jam 16bb deep btn vs co, at least with no reads...of course if you know 88 is being folded then you can adjust properly but imo it's more of a missplay than a deviation
Perhaps the most likely explanation here is that Byron had a solid read that Einhorn was going to shove. If Einhorn is like 50%+ to shove, I'd guess 88 is an easily winning fold pre.
It's hard to tell from the footage. Einhorn looks interested as Byron prepares to act, but then we see Einhorn sweat his cards and show them to the camera after Byron folds. We don't know whether Einhorn sweated his cards previously or not.
Yes, it is possible that the amateur looked at his cards and gave accurate information. If Einhorn appeared strong, then he would have to either have a higher pp or over cards. The only other explanation was that Kaverman was playing scared due to the $2m bubble.
That hand is odd, because the only play with either 88 or AQ in that spot, with about 16xBB and the chip leader in the BB, was to shove. Both players should have a raising range and maybe a limping range of marginal or very strong hands.
If;'s a pretty clear call for Einhorn with AQ versus a Kaverman push.. There isn't much ICM issue as they are the two short stacks. Kaverman is only shoving one hand that dominates AQ. It is probably a fold if you know Kaverman is folding 88, but Einhorn should be ahead of his range. Plus Einhorn should be at a skill disadvantage, as shown by the rest of the hand, so it is better to make it a flip.
Interesting play and analysis with the river call with king high K9 vs. A4. Since the SB has all the good aces, and a big ace would be consistent with Bonomo's play on the flop and turn, should Bonomo consider betting or cr/ing the river as a bluff?
Min 26: Due the big ante Fedor should be incentivize to VPIP a lot. Because of the fact that Bonomo is quite deep and a good player I dont mind limping our whole range in Fedors shoes, cause we dont wanna play huge pots OOP vs him. We do cover him, but BB is quite deep, the icm payout-structure quite heavy ---> less ICM, therefore he can hurt our tournement equity signficantly too. Not sure how big the ante is but that might influence us to limp/vpip even more.
I am not saying Fedor is playing that strategy, but if he does then Bonomo will face a somewhat balanced range. Isoraising K3o can become supoptimal strategy as he fold out bunch of hands he dominates and usually get more calls by hands that dominate him, while K3o has poor EQ R in a big pot.
Also, what I d like to add is I disagree with the fact that limping in Fedors shoes is quite costly regarding ICM. First of all its quite heavy icm structure, thus we get better riskpremium. But even if lets say this is a high icm pressure environment because of the fact Fedor covers him it would be okaish to limp cause its less hurtful for him loosing chips compared to the BB, when he starts raising and playing big pots vs us. However, in high pressure situation it would be ofc better to start VPIP with lot of raises as Fedor to put lot of pressure towards BB.
I think with an ante this big limping is very likely winning with Q3o even under ICM. I'm unsure about the mix of raises versus limps that are correct under ICM pressure.
Dan bets some 8x, a bit of 3x, nearly all his 5x, around idk 2/3 or 3/4 of his strongest semibluffs (and all of his v strongest semibluffs like 97ss) and then maybe 1/2 or so of his weak semibluffs like gutters, then some air to round out his bluffing range on multiple semibluff completing rivers (i.e., like 9s4x to bluff the 6s river).
Confused on how you skip the TT vs A5 vs AK hand especially after an Ah by Solomon is exposed and how that affects Fedors calling range... was a crucial part of the hand in my opinion
Yeh, it's a call anyway. When Solomon deliberately exposes the A, it means he has AK, not AA, so it is a really easy call for TT with pot odds. Otherwise it is closer, as Solomon could have a higher pp. I understand the rationale, but am not totally convinced flat calling with the middle of his range was better than pushing initially.
My instinct said the TT call was close so i run the spot in HRC and it says TT is a fold to the BB 3b all-in shove..inserted images below. Am I missing something in how I've set this spot up?
Ive since run it with an ante of 12 to reflect the button ante better, No difference
I think your stack sizes are incorrect, I believe bb was 600k. So it was 13bb shove, then 45bb reshove. But my sim came to the same conclusion, that this was a pretty clear fold. Fedor and sauce could learn alot from us.
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HRC does only preflop calculations, so the raise range is assumed to confront with the call range to a check down scenario postflop. This leaves SB and BB playing extremely loose preflop strategies.
Your analysis of Byron's A5cc shove @ 15:55 is based on him having 16bb but the graphics indicate that the bb is 600k. His decision to shove seems a lot more clear for 13bb when there is a big ante.
great vid.
The difference in 66 on k32 and 44 on 952 (discussed at 24min) is what? how does the king cause the 66 to need less protection
There is only one overcard to flopped top pair on k32 but there are 5 on 952, so OOP xc range improves to a value bet more often on 952
Ben Sulsky can we talk more in depth about these type of spots where we would like to deny equity and how our size & freq should change on different textures?(Doesn’t have to be in tournament format - I actually would prefer non-ICM influenced theory discussion)
NoM, I'd guess somebody like Diego has some content on that. In general, betting volume increases a lot when the "air" section of ranges has 6+ TP outs.
Keep 'em coming, I'm loving it! Good mix of entertainment and a lot of strategy (which is entertaining for me).
excellent video. 10x better than the first part imo. loved the in depth analysis about little things I would never even consider when watching this footage.
Kaverman's open fold of 88 from CO was horrendous. It was good to point out that the ICM figures are too tight, as some people take them as Gospel. It seems like a clear open shove. Due to the bubble and the chip leader being in the BB, I wouldn't mess around with raising or limping, but open fold has to be the worst option. If Einhorn was significantly shorter than Kaverman, then folding might be possible. There is some point that Einhorn might make some mistakes and bust, which is what happened. If Kaverman had played the hand in any way, it is pretty certain he would have gii against Einhorn's AQ preflop.
agreed. I think that Ben is maybe being a little too nice. that 88 fold was terrible really. and even though these guys play $1 mill buy ins they aren't exactly the best players in the world. I mean if you let the likes of Linus, OTB, Trueteller study tournaments for even a couple of weeks they would be the best players in these fields.
and there are hundreds of tournament/cash regs just as good, if not better than these guys who play online but just don't have backers or don't want the variance of playing in these.
I know it's good for the advertisement to say x amount of the best players in the world, playing the highest buy in in the world come together to battle it out for millions of $. but in reality these are decent, but not amazing, players who are still making lots of mistakes. I mean someone on an $11 FT would know to jam that 88 hand. and it doesn't matter that the min cash is for $2 million, that is letting human emotion dictate your poker actions and that is not what an elite player should let happen. as the min cash is only 2x the buy in, doesn't matter that it's 2 million its 2x the buy in. you are join last in chips and with a very strong hand in late position.
fwiw I think Einhorn HAS to fold that AQo hand vs a Kaverman jam. even though he is a rec I still feel like he would find the fold.
agreed with almost everything demondoink but not on the part you say AQo has to fold to a jam 16bb deep btn vs co, at least with no reads...of course if you know 88 is being folded then you can adjust properly but imo it's more of a missplay than a deviation
Perhaps the most likely explanation here is that Byron had a solid read that Einhorn was going to shove. If Einhorn is like 50%+ to shove, I'd guess 88 is an easily winning fold pre.
It's hard to tell from the footage. Einhorn looks interested as Byron prepares to act, but then we see Einhorn sweat his cards and show them to the camera after Byron folds. We don't know whether Einhorn sweated his cards previously or not.
Yes, it is possible that the amateur looked at his cards and gave accurate information. If Einhorn appeared strong, then he would have to either have a higher pp or over cards. The only other explanation was that Kaverman was playing scared due to the $2m bubble.
That hand is odd, because the only play with either 88 or AQ in that spot, with about 16xBB and the chip leader in the BB, was to shove. Both players should have a raising range and maybe a limping range of marginal or very strong hands.
If;'s a pretty clear call for Einhorn with AQ versus a Kaverman push.. There isn't much ICM issue as they are the two short stacks. Kaverman is only shoving one hand that dominates AQ. It is probably a fold if you know Kaverman is folding 88, but Einhorn should be ahead of his range. Plus Einhorn should be at a skill disadvantage, as shown by the rest of the hand, so it is better to make it a flip.
Interesting play and analysis with the river call with king high K9 vs. A4. Since the SB has all the good aces, and a big ace would be consistent with Bonomo's play on the flop and turn, should Bonomo consider betting or cr/ing the river as a bluff?
XR bluff is halfway reasonable but the hand has too much showdown value to bet as a bluff.
Min 26: Due the big ante Fedor should be incentivize to VPIP a lot. Because of the fact that Bonomo is quite deep and a good player I dont mind limping our whole range in Fedors shoes, cause we dont wanna play huge pots OOP vs him. We do cover him, but BB is quite deep, the icm payout-structure quite heavy ---> less ICM, therefore he can hurt our tournement equity signficantly too. Not sure how big the ante is but that might influence us to limp/vpip even more.
I am not saying Fedor is playing that strategy, but if he does then Bonomo will face a somewhat balanced range. Isoraising K3o can become supoptimal strategy as he fold out bunch of hands he dominates and usually get more calls by hands that dominate him, while K3o has poor EQ R in a big pot.
Also, what I d like to add is I disagree with the fact that limping in Fedors shoes is quite costly regarding ICM. First of all its quite heavy icm structure, thus we get better riskpremium. But even if lets say this is a high icm pressure environment because of the fact Fedor covers him it would be okaish to limp cause its less hurtful for him loosing chips compared to the BB, when he starts raising and playing big pots vs us. However, in high pressure situation it would be ofc better to start VPIP with lot of raises as Fedor to put lot of pressure towards BB.
I think with an ante this big limping is very likely winning with Q3o even under ICM. I'm unsure about the mix of raises versus limps that are correct under ICM pressure.
Hi Ben,
great vid as always. How should Dan's turnbettingrange be constructed in the A4o vs K9o hand at that stackdepth?
Timestamp plz
Dan bets some 8x, a bit of 3x, nearly all his 5x, around idk 2/3 or 3/4 of his strongest semibluffs (and all of his v strongest semibluffs like 97ss) and then maybe 1/2 or so of his weak semibluffs like gutters, then some air to round out his bluffing range on multiple semibluff completing rivers (i.e., like 9s4x to bluff the 6s river).
40:10min
Confused on how you skip the TT vs A5 vs AK hand especially after an Ah by Solomon is exposed and how that affects Fedors calling range... was a crucial part of the hand in my opinion
I think I missed that part. Fedor should have played his hand the same way regardless of the exposed Ah, which is a big bonus for him.
Yeh, it's a call anyway. When Solomon deliberately exposes the A, it means he has AK, not AA, so it is a really easy call for TT with pot odds. Otherwise it is closer, as Solomon could have a higher pp. I understand the rationale, but am not totally convinced flat calling with the middle of his range was better than pushing initially.
Leaving out the exposed card.
My instinct said the TT call was close so i run the spot in HRC and it says TT is a fold to the BB 3b all-in shove..inserted images below. Am I missing something in how I've set this spot up?
Ive since run it with an ante of 12 to reflect the button ante better, No difference
I think your stack sizes are incorrect, I believe bb was 600k. So it was 13bb shove, then 45bb reshove. But my sim came to the same conclusion, that this was a pretty clear fold. Fedor and sauce could learn alot from us.
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