4 Tables $10/$20 and $25/$50 6-Max Deep Ante PLO (part 1)
Posted by Ola Amundsgård
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There are a lot of levels running through my head.
At the first level, it looks -EV in a vacuum. Agree?
Is the optimal play is to fold turn and tell nobody?
Is he really barreling balanced, with this massive sizing?? Or his he pretending to be balanced, but he has different betsizes.(potting it with the nuts, and maybe not even with the blocker)
I guess you you justifying the calldown because you want to stay unexploitable?? How much is this worth?
There are a lot of vacuum river spots, in Phil's videos too, where I just cringe when looking at the river bet,, hero calls, we get shown the nuts. I feel like it's possible I undervalue the metagame of sort of being known as an unexploitable station and making people have it, though... and perhaps this is worth more than I think it's worth.
Also, you probably get bluffed at a more predictable frequency in 400BB pots, and at higher stakes too, if you are known to make these stubborn calls, so I'm sure that's worth a lot too. And you can work in an exploitable fold in a really key spot that is less expected.
All the questions you asked really cannot be answered by anyone. If we could, we would choose the best play to counter villain's strategy; however, against tough regs at high stakes, its incredibly difficult to pin point the questions so we resort to protecting our own range
"At the first level, it looks -EV in a vacuum. Agree? "
- I feel like my call here might be a -EV vacum call against the field, but im close to the top of my range,
and I think that can justify a call (I will explain it better in your last question)
"Is the optimal play is to fold turn and tell nobody"
- How do you define "optimal play?" - By "Game Theory Optimal" folding the turn here is not optimal at all
(Since if we are folding this hand on the turn, then we are probably folding close to our range (~90%) and
thats very exploitable hence != Optimal) I'll try do explain this in the end of this post.
"Is he really barreling balanced, with this massive sizing?? Or his he pretending to be balanced, but he has different betsizes.(potting it with the nuts, and maybe not even with the blocker)"
- As I mentioned in the video, that was going trough my head while playing the hand/after the hand, and just to
keep a mental note of(good note would probably be the best). So the next time the situation appears I could use my reads (notes) to maybe fold the grayzone(bottom part) of my turn and or river calling range based on my reads.
"I guess you you justifying the calldown because you want to stay unexploitable?? How much is this worth?"
- If im folding the river here as played, im probably folding 90-95%+ of my range OTR, and versus observant opponents which have more balanced ranges we are loosing money by folding so much rivers.
Versus players which have tendencies/reads/statistics/analysis of river folds % in spots like this, they can basicly just exploit us by betting range on turn and rivers (on boards like this) and just print money versus us. Now in order for us to prevent that from happening we kinda need to not fold so big percentage of our range on the river. You can kinda look it as an insurance for not potentially bleeding in certain spots (either way).
There are however situations where we can consider folding rivers and or even turns here, and that is imo versus players we got good reads/statistics (tried to pick something up in the video about bet sizing. But we might level ourself alot by basing to many decisions on reads, id rather take the grayzone/bottom hands in my range based on reads/tendencies/dynamics) on, which never bluffs river here. And I do also think at lower stakes folding the river here is probably ok (we are now exploiting them for not bluffing enough).
Hope this answer helped you understand my thought process.
After that on a K45 dd flop you opt to float IP with a OE that only has 3 nut outs on a board that villain hits pretty hard and should barrel pretty often... can you please elaborate yout though process and explain how do u think your call is EV+ ?
thanks
Against 6% even if its 10%, we are doing very poorly both preflop and flop equity distribution. With essentially on 2 streets left, on what accounts can we justify this being a better spot to call than to fold?
Preflop: Ac36Qc
We are ~120bb deep IP w dead money. Im not thrilled about the situation, but I think I can defend it ~120BB deep w dead money (SB+antes). Im for sure not making alot of money in this situation, and its not super clear cut call. Our Main goal here is to not to make alot of money. But rather make more money than folding which is -400bb/100 (since i 4X CO here). I think I can make > -400bb/100 by calling the 3bet preflop.
Postflop: Kc4d5d, villain cbets $420 into $579
Again im not super happy about the situation, but I still believe I can flat/float. I do think I have 6 clean "nut" outs like 95% of the time (villain shouldnt have many 68xx w/ 6.6% 3bet). I think villain will give me some incorrect free cards on turns and or check-folding/giving up on some cards OTT/OTR which justify calling the flop. (I do agree that its a close decision and could be convinced folding is better)
I also do want to keep my fold-to-cb in 3b pots as low as possible for several reasons :)
Hope that somewhat answered your q.
Because the cards i think he cks are the 6 outs you hit...
overall i think even if you dont like to fold flops on 3bet pots in this spot you are crushed by his range and a call is ev-. tks for the answer
I am new to plo playing 0.50/1.00 - At this level is it less important to be balanced with your range due to the fact your playing not great hand readers? or would you say its a good habit to get into for when your moving up in stakes?
Yes you are definitly right, people are playing their own cards (fixed strategy) more at those stakes hence there should be less reasons for you to be super balanced (since people arent adjusting/exploting you as hard) in many spots, there is however merits to think about balancing your ranges in some spots (so you are ready/prepared when moving up in stakes :) )
can you explain your thoughts for your preflop decision with the K556ds. To me it seems like opening this hand from MP is already a mistake, especially deep. Now when BTN calls and the SB/BB 3bets this deep, as you explained his range is super strong. And as you said the BTN will come a long every time OR cold 4bet. So you will be forced to fold preflop after calling the 3bet, I guess overcalling 4bet is very spewy right? Now for postflop, even on the flop you hit there your range multiway vs assuming overpair+FD and all that isn't all that great.
However, what do you do on all the other flops? I mean if you flop two pair on KT6 with your K655, you cannot really continue this deep with someone behind you if he pots, right? Or if you flop trip K, your kicker hurts your equity if you get action.
1. Villain's range is super strong
2. We have poor relative position
3. Our have just has below average equity
Please explain more thoroughly as to what assumptions you think can make this call +EV and also what your action would be on various different types of boards
Preflop:
As I remember I was the CO and not MP, I think this hand is a fold in MP in though lineups. Im however pretty confident I can open K556ds profitable in the CO in most of todays lineups.
When facing a flat from the BTN (250BB effective) and a squeeze from the "tight" SB range (180BBs) after opening K556ds in the CO, I actually agree with you, I think its a missplay from my side. I think I should fold to the squeeze for several reasons:
- Our hand plays/flop poorly in a 3b pot (as you mentioned)
- SB has a really tight percived 3b squeezing range (~4-5%)
- We are squeezed in the middle when SB cbets (the BTN get to act after us).
- Potential 50bb side pot OOP. vs a though Button.
So I actually think in retrospect I made an incorrect call preflop, I still however think my CO opening is fine in most lineups.
Thanks for the help :)
Really happy that you joined the team and nice 1st video!
A couple of the posters above have already asked some questions I had concerns about so I just replied below.
A suggestion is that in future videos I think you can try to talk about the different decisions you might make before villain takes an action.
For example, on the hand where you opened SB with 6752ds and board reads KJA9J and you river a baby flush and you opted to check. Here maybe you can talk about how you would react to a bet.
Also there was a hand you 3bet AQJTdd vs. a button open deep SB vs BTN. Flop is Q22dd your reasoning to check here alot is because you don't have many QQ combos or 2x; however, BTN's range is WAY wider than yours and he, although will have more 2x combos, will still be rare.
This board according to both ranges, hits you a lot harder than he does. Just because you can't have a 2 or QQ doesn't mean he can just put a ton of pressure on you because he doesn't have them much either. It seems a bit counterintuitive to 3bet this hand "to build a pot cuz its a great hand" and be checking flops like these. Would you mind giving me your thoughts on this?
Sorry for taking so long time to response (easter/vacation...)
Thanks for the good response, and the good questions, I will definitly take the responses (both good and bad ones) into account to improve the overall quality of my videos in the future.
"For example, on the hand where you opened SB with 6752ds and board reads KJA9J and you river a baby flush and you opted to check. Here maybe you can talk about how you would react to a bet."
- Do you mean like how I would react on the given river with my hand or with my range in that spot?
Or do you mean what things/factors/variables you should take into consideration when facing a bet with a
bluffcatcher in general? I think I elibrated/rambled some about the villain's river checkback, and what I can do to exploit his tight river-check-back /w KJxx @ AJKJx... I also feel like there is some limit in how in depth I can/should go into in spots like that (limited amount of time when making a video..). But I agree with you, I could probably mention in some spots what I do if villain b/c/r/x, and ill try my best to implement it in my next video.
"Also there was a hand you 3bet AQJTdd vs. a button open deep SB vs BTN. Flop is Q22dd your reasoning to check here alot is because you don't have many QQ combos or 2x; however, BTN's range is WAY wider than yours and he, although will have more 2x combos, will still be rare."
- You are deffinitly right, that our range is crushing villain's range "hot and cold" equity wise, (we prolly have around ~80% vs. his range with this hand.) And when your range is crushing your opponent's range, its usually a good spot to bet.
- I feel like I kinda explained the hand and my reasons to check-/ AQTJ(Add) @ Q22dd bad/short in the video. And I could probably as well write a novel about the hand, but ill try to keep it short.
There are obviously downsides and upsides to putting a so strong hand as this in my checking range.
I am probably c-betting this hand between 50-70% On the flop. And one thing to point out aswell is that my cbetting frequencies also go up alot when stacksizes go down.
My reasoning behind the flop check:
- Makes our checking range stronger/merged/"undefined", it should "protect" our checking range in that it should be harder for our opponent to barrel us with the right frequencies versus our range. => We should
be able to easier get to showdown when we want w/ overpairs ~{AA**,KK**,AQ**...}. If we construct our
flop range for checking here to be some ~{AA**/KK**..} we check/call and some ~{air} we chek-fold ("capped polarization"), then it makes it super easy for our opponent to play against us (easy for him make a good counter-strategy for barreling/betting frequencies), Which is a good argument for having hands like this in our checking range (atleast some % of the time)
OOPS! (Keep in mind):
- One thing to keep in mind (as mentioned in the video) is that we need to put some total air hands in our checking range aswell to c-f and/or (to delay-cbet) or even c/r some % VS. good though opponents since our range for CBetting will become really unbalanced fast, by including to much strong value in our checks. You could also construct a cool check-raising range on the flop to protect/exploit against "auto-stabs", and including a hand like this in that check-raising range will probably be good. I think many regulars struggle a bit with this part, and is very unbalanced/defined in their range for both CBetting and checking in 3b pots on boards like this.
Best vacum line:
- I do however think that the best vacum line is to bet this given board vs most good tough regulars,
the reasoning is that most regs will attack this Qd2d2 board alot because that people are very unbalanced
for CBetting this board in general 200bb deep, and therefore they will attack it alot => including AQTJ(Add) in our CBetting range is good beacuse it blocks {QQ**/Q2**} and it can handle three streets of heat, even tho we will get to make hard/tough river decisions.
Simple is often best (for other reasons):
- That beeing said, there are many opponents (weak-passive...) where the most profitable play is to CBet range on the flop and maybe check-call some overpairs, thats clearly really exploitable, but is often the most profitable versus many players. But the villain in this video does not in my opinion fall into that category.
Hope I dont forgot to mention any good points/concept.
Thanks for the response. It is very thorough and clear.
Your reasonings seem good from an exploitive perspective; however with regards to GTO we can technically be cbetting this board 100% (or something high like 90%) of the time because villain will just not have enough hands to defend against this given the nature of his weak range?
And with that we will play future streets based on where our hand stands in our range constructor
Yeah I agree that you could make argument for sizing bigger on the flop, to setup a pot sized turn shove.
Especially since there is a flushdraw on board, I think my sizing is a bit to small for the reasons you mentioned. If the board however is rainbow I kinda like my sizing more (could go even a bit smaller then).
We could also consider making some other kind of different betsizing strategies on this board:
Bet a bit bigger w all AA** and use a smaller sizing (~1/4 pot) with {AA**cc, A***cc...} and {RD's,KK**} (polarized)
Even tho we will probably be unbalanced in that we will have more bet-folds in our range than bet-calls if we do it that way. (Since we would have more combos of air than "value")
I feel 1/2 pot is just to big for the given situation, our percieved range is super strong on AcQ3c with a small STP (2.3?) and villain's range is capped + not hitting this board, and should be folding alot (isnt so many combos to protect against in his range other than FD combos) + we want to bet-fold this board cheap the times we have RD's and might even want to bet-fold some KK**...
Hope that answer helped.
Thanks for the nice response.
Really good and earmarked questions (like).
"You fold either A556 or A665 vs a 3bet btn vs sb about 70bb deep, how deep would you need to be as a rough guide vs a standard 3bet range ?"
- I feel like I would probably fold both VS. a competent regular (prolly not doublesuited), hot and cold equity
wise I dont think our hand is that bad equity wise (~40%), but playability is so bad, we are gonna get a lot of tough decisions + make many incorrect folds/plays and just fold so many flops. I do however think that VS. some player I might defend both. Versus really agro 3bettors I think limping preflop is a good valid option. 70bb deep.
"And how would this change vs a tight range?"
- I think its a bit "give and take" versus. a tighter range. The tighter our villains range converge towards AA** the lesser equity we got vs range, and the more I kinda feel like folding 70bbs pre. However the more defined villains range for 3betting is the less mistakes we will make postflop. If the villain is doing incorrect equity mistakes postflop by either stacking off in some boards he shouldnt or by check-folding to much the more I like playing versus a tighter range (I think :)) and the more im likely to defend the hand versus. a 3bet in general.
"Expanding on this what sort of hands are you folding to a 3bet at 60-70bb and at 100bb in these spots, as vs competent sbs with a decent 3bet range and enough balance postflop i feel like there are lot of the hands in the bottom parts of my range"
- Im probably folding the bottom ~5-15% of my opening/stealing range VS. a 3bet depending on the factors stated above. I can assure you that you arent the only one which is struggeling abit playing versus 3bets with a weak range, and I think its a really important/hard factor to master in this game. Im prolly also making some slightly -EV calls preflop in order to not get exploited. Im probably folding some bad A*** with a low pair, same goes for K*** with a low pair (singlesuited or rb), Qxxx, Jxxx....... w/ low pairs, bad low/mid pairs (Ex: 8823). And some other hands with bad playability.
I think some of theese hands could be limped slightly profitable and not raised preflop VS. 3b happy blinds w/ given stack sizes.
One thing that might help thinking about is to ask yourself (or even filtering in HEM (need big sample)), is to beat your stealsize bb-100 (Example you 3x the BTN and get 3bet) now by folding you are loosing -300bb/100, could you beat that by calling? if the answer is yes, then you probaby should call. (As mentioned you can use HEM for filtering to check if there is hands you are loosing a lot with vs 3bets)
I can assure you that im struggeling abit myself with weak ranges in 3b pots even IP. GL hope my answer helped.
In the future, how is gonna be the ratio of making different types of videos? Personally, I would love to see hh review, where you select one area(e.g 3b pots oop as pfr deep, 3barrell bluffing etc),like Phil did in raising turns.
Do you have thoughts on offering private coaching in the future?
Im aiming to be making 6 session review videos (like this one) and some strategy/ pure theory videos, but im always open for suggestions. Im sure I can make a video or two about concepts like that.
Im currently not doing any private coaching, I might however be open for it in the future.
got a quick question on something I've never done before but find super interesting, what's you limping range/~% sb vs bb and how often and type of hands are you limp3bing to counter players who habitually raise limps in the bb?
one quick thing: I dont really understand how you come to the number of -5BB/100 when folding SBvsBB?
isn´t it the same situation like folding to a 3bet after opening where it´s -400bb/100 if u open 4bb.
so isn´t it in this SB spot -50BB/100?
Good questions.
My limping range in the SB for stacksizes >= 150bbs is prolly around on average around 20-30%, but its depending alot on the villain. I deffinitly think you should have a limp-3betting range from the SB (when having a limping range for balance) versus many opponents which you stated, I feel like limp-3betting some hands in the top 10% hot and cold equity wise hands (some good AA**,AKQ*, some good KK**) and mixing it in with some mid/good RD's from time to time is a good start.
You are spot on right, it is not -5bb/100 but -50bb/100,
I do however think I stated -50bb/100 in the video and not -5bb/100
(My english is a bit bad so you might not have heard it clearly... Im working on improving it)
if you actually factor in the antes; the winrate by folding from the SB is actually (-10/20) + (-4/20) * 100= -70bb/100 and not -50bb/100 (my bad in the video for not mentioning it)
We can then conclude for obvious reasons that we should have an even wider limping/opening range from the SB
in an ante game then in a regular game. (+ factoring in the dead antes).
I have a question about the QQ54 hand where you're 2nd to act 3-ways on T44 with the button PFR behind you. You said you expect him to cbet JJxx+ here for value, how do you expect him to play those hands on both the flop as well as later streets when you bet out here?
Thanks!
I guess he is flatting range OTF (somewhat standard range) = {some JJ,QQ,KK,AA,some 4***, and some T*** (might turn into bluff later))} for "value":
I expect him to atleast call the turn barrell > 50%, and probably the same freuqencies for the river after calling the turn barrel (So he won't be to exploitable).
Thanks for question.
Hi Odd, Thanks for a great video!
Would you please list the stats in your hud? It is quite helpfull for us to know all the inputs, even small subconscious ones.
Hi Odd, I was very excited to see your first video and fortunately didn't get disappointed - great work!
My question is about the final hand with A6 on AJ6 where you said that you would get it in on any card except Kd, Qd and Jd. Why are lower flush cards save cards for you in that spot?
Also it would be great to point out when you see an opponent making a bad play/mistake and in addition how you'd play it if you were in his shoes.
Thx and gl
hey for the AA62ds hand after 20:00, what kind of hands do you tend to pot to balance your range as bluffs on the turn?
Im not too sure what percentage of hands in your 4betting range would be AAXX but it may seem like if for example your range for 4betting is AAXX heavy then would it be better for your to bet bigger on the flop since others may perceive your 4betting range to be AAXX heavy?
Thanks, great video btw
As someone mentioned, could you describe your HUD. I think I figured them all out but the last line (ATS from BTN, SB?)
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