about open/shove spots were you talk about regs ripping 15 bbs utg: i have a feeling that hands like suited brodways or even some strong suited conectors are just too valuable to r/f utg. they have too much equity when you are able to realize it by seeing 5 cards. in that exact hand that greenstone25 shoves 15 bbs with KJs, do you prefer r/f or just open folding? maybe limping? i think obviously depends alot from the table line up. in a reggy aggro table i think its just way better to jam , cause raise folding to a hand like 66 its just a disaster imo. and in a passive table its perfect fine to r/f when peoples ranges are much tighter.
i think could be an interesting strategy to create a limping range in those 15 to 18 bbs stack and have some limp//shove limp/ fold and limp/ call range.
James on the Q9o hand I think nash is 22+ Ax+ K5s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 97s+ 87s 76s. I could be slightly off and maybe I should be shoving a bit wider than nash anyway but Q9o would still be really close in that spot.
The QTo float on the flop is less crazy than it seems, given that we need to defend a large part of our range against this tiny bet, and calling is the cheapest option.
depends how accurately we can pinpoint preflop ranges and how they relate to the flop; it's obviously very difficult to do in this case but it's still pretty cray i would have thought! great hand
First hand, you discuss what range the BT calling the min 4bet is. Since the BT will be 3 betting wide, the 4bet is so small and there are antes GTO wise the BT should be calling the 4bet incredibly wide. So on the flop Hero will have to be defending vs a small bet very wide himself. Not that strange really.
James Obst11 years, 6 months agoi disagree with those assertions of extreme width and the application/relevance of this type of game theory in a majority of tournament situations, but respect your opinion nevertheless. It's one thing to say hypothetically ranges can be wide in a given spot, but in reality they often won't be (given both players' potential to move all-in instead preflop, I don't think they even should be wide as we can exclude many hands), and this isn't a preflop sequence you see play out every couple orbits at 125/250/25. I feel pretty confident in saying hero isn't playing his QT here with the main justification being "game theory dictates i should c/c here" (it surely doesn't, anyhow)
Of course I respect your oppinion as well and you are most definitely correct since I'm not even a tournament player. But if it as ypu say then tournament players are splitting their ranges in spots where they can't balance well enough and in so spots like the above players have so unbalanced ranges that they can't defend with enough frequency to stay unexploitable.
James Obst11 years, 6 months agoYeah my impression in this spot is that the 4b/caller should have a very defined range though it's hard to define given he could have a) 3b all in or b) 5b all in - and the small 4b in this spot is super uncommon with the shortness of the stack sizes (far more likely to see shoves) so hero's perceived range should be very strong with some rare weak hands (more weak hands given his preflop activeness?), in this case we were making a feel-based light 4b, and given our expectation of having a perceived very strong range we expected plenty of folds from light 3bs despite the odds.
The reason I find this hand so interesting is because of how hard it is now to define the range to 3b/call, and therefore to formulate the right postflop lines on different textures. I'm sure it will change drastically from player to player - I do think some players will simply have {KK+} here and be shove/fold happy with all other hands, but obviously not this guy.
You're right it's often very hard to have perfect balance on these kind of stacks, I think tournaments play more exploitatively because you don't build up enough history with players for them to ever feel totally confident about your ranges, and therefore perceived balance is far more relevant than real balance.
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hey james nice video!
about open/shove spots were you talk about regs ripping 15 bbs utg: i have a feeling that hands like suited brodways or even some strong suited conectors are just too valuable to r/f utg. they have too much equity when you are able to realize it by seeing 5 cards. in that exact hand that greenstone25 shoves 15 bbs with KJs, do you prefer r/f or just open folding? maybe limping? i think obviously depends alot from the table line up. in a reggy aggro table i think its just way better to jam , cause raise folding to a hand like 66 its just a disaster imo. and in a passive table its perfect fine to r/f when peoples ranges are much tighter.
i think could be an interesting strategy to create a limping range in those 15 to 18 bbs stack and have some limp//shove limp/ fold and limp/ call range.
thanks mate - if they have too much equity vs shoving ranges then raise/call seems to be the play.
James on the Q9o hand I think nash is 22+ Ax+ K5s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 97s+ 87s 76s. I could be slightly off and maybe I should be shoving a bit wider than nash anyway but Q9o would still be really close in that spot.
The QTo float on the flop is less crazy than it seems, given that we need to defend a large part of our range against this tiny bet, and calling is the cheapest option.
depends how accurately we can pinpoint preflop ranges and how they relate to the flop; it's obviously very difficult to do in this case but it's still pretty cray i would have thought! great hand
First hand, you discuss what range the BT calling the min 4bet is. Since the BT will be 3 betting wide, the 4bet is so small and there are antes GTO wise the BT should be calling the 4bet incredibly wide. So on the flop Hero will have to be defending vs a small bet very wide himself. Not that strange really.
Of course I respect your oppinion as well and you are most definitely correct since I'm not even a tournament player. But if it as ypu say then tournament players are splitting their ranges in spots where they can't balance well enough and in so spots like the above players have so unbalanced ranges that they can't defend with enough frequency to stay unexploitable.
The reason I find this hand so interesting is because of how hard it is now to define the range to 3b/call, and therefore to formulate the right postflop lines on different textures. I'm sure it will change drastically from player to player - I do think some players will simply have {KK+} here and be shove/fold happy with all other hands, but obviously not this guy.
You're right it's often very hard to have perfect balance on these kind of stacks, I think tournaments play more exploitatively because you don't build up enough history with players for them to ever feel totally confident about your ranges, and therefore perceived balance is far more relevant than real balance.
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