I would't fold if SB shoved either. I mean, yes he saw AJ in your limping range once, but he also raised your limp 3-4 times after that and took down the pot, so he should probably realise that there is also a lot of garbage in this range besides value. It's definitely close with ICM considerations, but i consider KQs to be too good and even if we loose we still have 10bb for possible comeback =). Would have folded QJs,KTs though.
Hey Smile. Thanks for watching again, and for this comment. I tend to agree with your exact range in this spot. KQ and KJs dominate him too much to fold. I think you're spot on when you say he's now aware that I'm limping some junk as well. This guy is certainly aware enough to realize that, especially given the empirical evidence you mentioned.
What do you think of the JJ hand right around that same moment? I think I should just call his flop bet. There really is no disadvantage to doing that. There is no turn card that will will make me fold me hand with only a PSB left in stacks. He has so much air that I want to let improve, and I'll still stack his flopped one-pair hands. My only concern is that it looks a bit suspicious. What am I repping? 46s I guess? I don't know how big of an issue that really is though, because 1. he might not be aware or perceive my call to be suspicious 2. He might suspect bad news, but not be able to fold a pair, or be compelled to bluff the turn since it's his only way to win the pot 3. This might be a definite drawback, but not enough to outweigh the benefits of calling over shoving the flop.
I was writing a message about why i disagree that flat flop is better than shove, but after thinking it through couple times i deleted it, cuz i am not sure, so maybe you are right that calling is better. =)
I'll write down some of my thoughts though:
- First of all, you said that after he limp/folded to you once he would have limped now with a lot of strong hands and raise a lot of junk. I kinda disagree with it a bit, cuz that's the way how you would play and adjust overall, but it doesn't mean he would do this. He can have his own strategy and plan, so i woudn't exclude a lot of Ax,pp's from his range untill i saw he is doing it.
- His flop sizing is indeed big which makes me feel he is not folding very often.
- I'm also not worried about turn card, we would not fold on, but I'm worried that the are possible turn cards that make him c/f the hand he would stack off on the turn. So the question is which of turn cards are more a) which scares his range and he c/f plus over cards to JJ which give him TP (Q,K,A) or b) that improves his flop air and he stacks off+cards he bluff shoves. I guess you are right that its choice b) (but i have counted it in any software)
- I think this player would not think about your range this deeply, so he would not be suspicious.
I like these thoughts a lot. You broke down the turn cards that could come very well, and I agree with your conclusion - choice b has more combos in it. And if you're point about him not reading hands deeply is true, which I suspect it is to a small degree at a minimum, then that further increases the merit of choice b, because he has less check folds with a flopped pair on poor turn cards for his hand than most opponents would. There is definitely some room for debate on his preflop approach with various parts of his range in this dynamic. I do think the scenario I outlined in the video is most likely, but I'm not sure of this by any means. I approach this spot with that as a loose expectation, but open to the possibility that his range could be played in many ways, including those totally opposite of what I would expect. Love the breakdown here, cheers.
Hey Dan, thanks for watching, and I'm glad you asked this question, because it's important. In situations like this, where everyone has a relatively small amount of chips (or BB) compared to the blinds, knowing which hands you can and cannot shove profitably is one of the most crucial fundamentals. There are a few things that factor in. 1. The stack sizes of everyone at the table 2. My stack size and 3. My hand.
Let's address point one first. In this case it's easy, because I'm clearly the shortest stack. As a general rule, you want to play tighter than normal where there are shorter stacks than you, especially when there are people who are very short on chips/bb. I'm the shortest here, so that isn't the case, which means I can shove any hand that makes money. I don't have to fold hands that make money as I have to in situations where I'm 4th out of 8 and there are two players with 6 BBs.
Now back to the original question, and point 3. Yes, this is standard for me to fold A7 for this amount and this position. I think I would draw that line at about ATo or A9o in this situation. I would probably shove any suited ace, because they have about 4% more equity than their offsuit cousins. Any pair is going in. Many suited hands, all the way down to like 89s, K9s, and J8s. offsuit hands like KTo, QJo are all going in. That comes to about 20% of all possible hands I'd be shoving here, but A7 off doesn't quite make the cut.
Hey Nick. Around 28:00-30:00 in the video, I actually really liked both plays with the JJ shove and the KQ. I think the shove with the JJ was better than the call. You are obviously way ahead and he had a lot of room to catch up with a turned str8, Flush, and Possible set. I know the % show you had the hand dominated but at this level, I think it was spot on. I was actually was a bit surprised he had enough discipline to lay it down unless he was just on complete air. Maybe 2 overs at best. As for the KQ....... well played sir, well played. No way you could lay that down in that action scenario.
I like the thought process with smile, good food for thought for sure but in the end, couldn't find a mistake.
Hey Logan! Thanks for watching and sharing your opinion on a couple key hands. As for the heads up portion of this tournament, it was made in as the 2nd part of a heads up mini-series I did. It was realeased on May 15th.
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Hi Nick
KQ hand at 30min.
I would't fold if SB shoved either. I mean, yes he saw AJ in your limping range once, but he also raised your limp 3-4 times after that and took down the pot, so he should probably realise that there is also a lot of garbage in this range besides value. It's definitely close with ICM considerations, but i consider KQs to be too good and even if we loose we still have 10bb for possible comeback =). Would have folded QJs,KTs though.
Hey Smile. Thanks for watching again, and for this comment. I tend to agree with your exact range in this spot. KQ and KJs dominate him too much to fold. I think you're spot on when you say he's now aware that I'm limping some junk as well. This guy is certainly aware enough to realize that, especially given the empirical evidence you mentioned.
What do you think of the JJ hand right around that same moment? I think I should just call his flop bet. There really is no disadvantage to doing that. There is no turn card that will will make me fold me hand with only a PSB left in stacks. He has so much air that I want to let improve, and I'll still stack his flopped one-pair hands. My only concern is that it looks a bit suspicious. What am I repping? 46s I guess? I don't know how big of an issue that really is though, because 1. he might not be aware or perceive my call to be suspicious 2. He might suspect bad news, but not be able to fold a pair, or be compelled to bluff the turn since it's his only way to win the pot 3. This might be a definite drawback, but not enough to outweigh the benefits of calling over shoving the flop.
I was writing a message about why i disagree that flat flop is better than shove, but after thinking it through couple times i deleted it, cuz i am not sure, so maybe you are right that calling is better. =)
I'll write down some of my thoughts though:
- First of all, you said that after he limp/folded to you once he would have limped now with a lot of strong hands and raise a lot of junk. I kinda disagree with it a bit, cuz that's the way how you would play and adjust overall, but it doesn't mean he would do this. He can have his own strategy and plan, so i woudn't exclude a lot of Ax,pp's from his range untill i saw he is doing it.
- His flop sizing is indeed big which makes me feel he is not folding very often.
- I'm also not worried about turn card, we would not fold on, but I'm worried that the are possible turn cards that make him c/f the hand he would stack off on the turn. So the question is which of turn cards are more a) which scares his range and he c/f plus over cards to JJ which give him TP (Q,K,A) or b) that improves his flop air and he stacks off+cards he bluff shoves. I guess you are right that its choice b) (but i have counted it in any software)
- I think this player would not think about your range this deeply, so he would not be suspicious.
I like these thoughts a lot. You broke down the turn cards that could come very well, and I agree with your conclusion - choice b has more combos in it. And if you're point about him not reading hands deeply is true, which I suspect it is to a small degree at a minimum, then that further increases the merit of choice b, because he has less check folds with a flopped pair on poor turn cards for his hand than most opponents would. There is definitely some room for debate on his preflop approach with various parts of his range in this dynamic. I do think the scenario I outlined in the video is most likely, but I'm not sure of this by any means. I approach this spot with that as a loose expectation, but open to the possibility that his range could be played in many ways, including those totally opposite of what I would expect. Love the breakdown here, cheers.
you folded a 7 off 7 bb utg is that a standard for you? and what is you bottom range for shoving utg in that situation?
Hey Dan, thanks for watching, and I'm glad you asked this question, because it's important. In situations like this, where everyone has a relatively small amount of chips (or BB) compared to the blinds, knowing which hands you can and cannot shove profitably is one of the most crucial fundamentals. There are a few things that factor in. 1. The stack sizes of everyone at the table 2. My stack size and 3. My hand.
Let's address point one first. In this case it's easy, because I'm clearly the shortest stack. As a general rule, you want to play tighter than normal where there are shorter stacks than you, especially when there are people who are very short on chips/bb. I'm the shortest here, so that isn't the case, which means I can shove any hand that makes money. I don't have to fold hands that make money as I have to in situations where I'm 4th out of 8 and there are two players with 6 BBs.
Now back to the original question, and point 3. Yes, this is standard for me to fold A7 for this amount and this position. I think I would draw that line at about ATo or A9o in this situation. I would probably shove any suited ace, because they have about 4% more equity than their offsuit cousins. Any pair is going in. Many suited hands, all the way down to like 89s, K9s, and J8s. offsuit hands like KTo, QJo are all going in. That comes to about 20% of all possible hands I'd be shoving here, but A7 off doesn't quite make the cut.
Hey Nick. Around 28:00-30:00 in the video, I actually really liked both plays with the JJ shove and the KQ. I think the shove with the JJ was better than the call. You are obviously way ahead and he had a lot of room to catch up with a turned str8, Flush, and Possible set. I know the % show you had the hand dominated but at this level, I think it was spot on. I was actually was a bit surprised he had enough discipline to lay it down unless he was just on complete air. Maybe 2 overs at best. As for the KQ....... well played sir, well played. No way you could lay that down in that action scenario.
I like the thought process with smile, good food for thought for sure but in the end, couldn't find a mistake.
Thanks again for the video!
Would like to see the final 2 for this event but can't find the video. What day was it posted? Thanks, Logan.
Hey Logan! Thanks for watching and sharing your opinion on a couple key hands. As for the heads up portion of this tournament, it was made in as the 2nd part of a heads up mini-series I did. It was realeased on May 15th.
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