Building Range Models (part 1)
Posted by Nick Howard
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This is exactly the type of video I need <3
Finally, I've really looked forward to this video. It will be a pleasure to watch this after my grind.
I can see a massive increase in skype groups in the near future...very motivational video Nick. Makes me want to work even harder.
yes I really like this video. Good work
Great stuff!
Hello Nick Howard
You talk about you read a book about HU NL
Can you please put a link to the book here?
Ty
it's Will Tipton's book Expert HUNL 2
we need this vid as essential!! Pretty please? info so many of us that don't know how to get started modeling this kind of stuff need and can't find it anywhere
+1 for essential access
+12321 for essential access. That is exactly what I am looking for and it seems like a good start for someone who wants to take the game more seriously and plays on the micro limit or low limits. WHich would include me. :)
I'm going to scrap part 2 of this as a video and re-activate the original thread instead. Essential users can follow us there. I'll be posting the visual hand groupings of the ranges I've come up with from modeling the main lines of the hand for both players, as well as listing my top take-aways that i learned from both this specific model and also going about the modeling process in general. Thanks for everyone's interest in the video!
Hello Guys
Anyone the will start a skype group here. I play 100nl HU and 6max
Add my skype
Skype: bollie12
Great video! One of the best ones on the site for sure. Learning this is changing my perspective on the game completely. I am relatively new to these programs myself, and have been starting to experiment with them. Feel I need to read Janda before I start using these programs though. Do you think I should finish Janda's book before I start getting really serious about CREV, PokerRanger and GTO Range builder? Also I have recently purchased Flopzilla... are you saying it isn't needed if you have PokerRanger? What about Pokerstrategy Equilab?
I think that having a good understanding of theory will help you get more value out of those programs, and maneuver a little better within them. Janda's book is a not an easy read but definitely well worth your time.
Imo Poker Ranger trumps flopzilla in the sense that it can do pretty much everything and more. Mainly the 2-player board hits function , showing you side by distributions, is a big plus for PR. Equilab is a pretty basic tool. GTORangebuilder is probably going to make a lot of noise in the next 6 months pending it's release, especially since it will be able to solve turns soon.
Right, I have a pretty good understanding of theory based on 2p2 and reading some stuff on the side. Trying to grasp the more difficult concepts though and master the advanced poker tools. Been trying to learn a bunch of different advanced poker tools at once which isn't giving me the progress I have been expecting. Going to make it my goal to just focus on one tool at a time. Curious on how you would rank the tools by importance. What would you recommend learning first,second, and third?
they're all good for their own thing. PR is the best visual range grouper imo. it has a built in EDvisualizer that is helpful with familiarizing yourself with assymetries on different textures, which i think is an important skill to develop. Also the 2-player board hits overlay and the Turn Evolutions function seem really helpful.
I'm not good at CREV. currently i'm working on a method of backwards induction with the creator of gtoRB to try and gain EV backwards from the river-->turn-->flop. The advantage of gtoRB is that it's able to provide a metric for how close you are to equilibrium ott/otr, which is where i think it could be more helpful than CREV for modeling. How aggressively and accurately gtoRB allows for backwards induction from the flop is still inconclusive at this point, from my perspective.
Very interesting stuff. I have previously downloaded all those programs, besides PokerRanger. Which program do you think you can apply to the poker table with best results? It is one thing to know the theory and math behind the situation, but another thing to execute it at the poker table for big wins. With that said, which program do you think would help most at making proftiable decisions at the table?
it really depends how you're able to categorize your take-aways from each specific tool. For instance, i'm a very visual learner, so for me there's value in studying visual range groupings for a specific texture like the K72 from the video. That being said, if those ranges are going to be high caliber and worth studying from, i probably had to use programs like CREV and gtoRB to construct them. This is why it's hard to classify the most valuable imo. PR is the beneficiary of the accuracy i gain by using other 2 tools, yet PR is the most conducive to my learning style, and i'm likely to gain most from it as a finished product.
Nick, can you elaborate on how this backwards induction method works using GTORB?
I'm taking lessons with the creator of GTO Rangebuilder to get better at it. Basically I approached him with the idea of using backwards induction using GTorb as a way for me to sidestep having to get a lot better at CREV for modeling. It's possible, and potentially a lot more effective than CREV b/c GTORB is able to provide epsilon equilibrium for all postflop streets. That gives you a metric that you can't get through CREV. I'll be posting more on the results/process in the original forum thread over the next couple weeks.
Do you think snowie can help u well to improve on flops and turns as pfr?
the problem with snowie is that it's preflop ranges are pretty different from the ones i'm using. so it's strategies from their on out will vary a bit based on that. It also doesnt seem to play well in multiway pots. but its strategies can be useful to take into consideration sometimes -- like how it opted for a BB XR range in the model example from this video
I'm having a hard time finding the software EDVisualizer. Where is this thing?
students have told me it's really hard to find. if you want to PM me your skype i'll just send it to you.
It's at the D&B Publishing page - on the page of Expert HUNL Vol. 1 is where you can find it (99% sure at least if my memory is good)...maybe I will just post a link to it later.
Hi,
I would like to set up a Skype group to work on these things for NLHU. PM me here or 2+2 if you're interested.
One comment on snowie. It has a big limitation in that it can only calculate 1/2 pot, 1 pot and 2 pot sized bets.
So whenever you are analyzing something with different betsizings you should be very cautious because the suggested result could be way off.
In this example when you are using a standard 1/2 size bet on the flop (as snowie suggests) it would only x-raise ~2.8% now when you are betting 3.75bb it would raise 10.5% when betting pot (5.5bb) it is x-raising 0.7%.
If you try some other betsizings e.g. 4bb (5.8%) or 3.5bb (6.6%) it is showing that its calculations on that matter should not be trusted too much.
i agree that snowie is not a good metric at this point in his career . i'm interested though why he would XR less vs 1/2 than it would vs a larger c-bet. seems like it should be the other way around.
I assume that snowie maybe thinks it can get to showdown cheaper with its weaker showdown hands (weak 2 or 7) vs a smaller flop bet (~100% call) whereas it is treating this same hands as a semibluff vs a larger bet (~75% raise). To balance this wider semibluffing range it is also including more toppair hands like KJ,KQ that it would otherwise be calling ~100% vs a 1/2 sized bet.
I have no clue how snowie came to this conclusion though because it actually only knows 1/2 or pot bets and when facing a potsize bet on that kind of flop it has almost no raising range at all.
The most useful video I've ever seen so far!! Keep going Nick
Hi Nick,
Thanks so much for doing these vids. Sorry I never got back to my original thread. Work got incredibly busy towards the end of last year so I took a fairly lengthy break from poker
I'll need a bit of time to digest the content, but just wanted to say thanks!
np it was one of my favorite threads of the year. welcome back!
hi there, I'm fairly new to poker.. just curious if GTO poker ranger is still a commonly used tool or if it has been largely replaced by PIOsolver? And similarly, I am curious if Poker Snowie has been largely supplanted by PIOsolver as well...
Many thanks
Hey sudonym,
Piosolver is the best tool in my opinion.
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