29:35 - you gotta shove that QT for "protection". It's not like you are floating and leaving 3,4k to the turn in a 6,9k pot.
And he will most likely bet/call ALOT of things, all pockets, alot of Ax and probably all broadways. No need to "slowplay", you have no range to protect here and you are not folding any turn and no one will expect that you do.
So you are just letting hands like for example J8 just freeroll to the turn and pick up a jack 6% of the time or an open-ended/or/flushdraw with great EQ and that's kind of a disaster when it's 6850 in the middle and you have 3479 in the stack and it's a tournament. You would definitely prefer a fold on the flop vs a hand like that rather then hope he shoves an Ace turn with no EQ, because that will happen much more rarely I feel.
Why would he shove any turn with any hand? Makes no sense to me, you are obviously not folding any turn when you flat the flop. I think it is a substanially higher chance that he TILT-gets-it-in with a J8+backdoorfd if you minraise flop than him seeing a 2c turn and knowing he is very very likely to have 3 outs or drawing dead and just shove it in.
You can just minraise to 4000 on the flop just for a psychological tilt-reason, I actually like that more than a shove just because of that reason.
When you flat that flop with that stack I would surely put you on Tx or a MONSTER KK/AA you flatted pre, so me having 49hh would just checkfold the best turn I could get which was a 9, because I obviously only have 3 outs and im definitely not calling of 3,5k with 3 outs.
"you are obviously not folding any turn when you flat the flop." Does villain know that ? nope ;)
This is what villain thinking process looks like:
"We are almost allin, maybe he is gonna fold some A high, I dont want to check with this little behind, maybe he is gonna shove me with bluff hand if I check to him, I can get lucky and hit river if he calls, I have a lot of chips anyway."
Upon re-watching I think I did a pretty bad job explaining the hand and I think you raise some good points.
I said that you should play this hand this way against any opponent, but I didn't explain that a big reason that is true is because the bet size our opponent chose on the flop says a lot about what type of opponent he is (probably a bad one). He should not be making a bet of that size with any hand, so if he's making what I consider to be a pretty bad bet on the flop, then he's given me plenty of reason to think we can exploit him into making another significant mistake on the turn. I suppose this is also somewhat true of pf, where I do not think many good thinking regs are 3xing this shallow (altho I don't think its awful). Most good thinking opponents would bet much smaller on this dry of a flop, which would give us much more room to play and have a flatting range, so the hand changes a bunch if the villain bets a more standard size.
You are right we are taking on some risk with our line, but I don't think we ever really let him check fold a hand on the turn that he was getting in on the flop. Ax, two over cards, and PPs will likely all shove the turn if they were calling the flop. The only other hands that have some equity are Kx and Jx which only have one chance to hit one over card. You are right that them hitting an oesd or fd and shoving is about neutral EV for us, but its not that bad. Maybe its slightly bad on the whole when they turn an 8/9 out draw. But they also will turn a lot of gutters which will almost always shove the turn. And he may potentially just shove J hi or K hi that doesn't improve on the turn. So I do think the risk is justified by the reward. Against a much better opponent who might make less mistakes, we might be better off not giving a free card, but again I don't think that opponent ever uses this flop sizing.
Then he has another big chunk of hands which are undercards and they can pretty much do nothing but make -EV or neutral plays on the turn no matter what the card is. So I'm happy to free roll on that too. Especially when the board is paired and any turned pair will only have 2 outs.
I agree w/ most things you said about min raising vs shoving the flop. Tilting people into bad decisions is a real consideration.
that is really really optimistic thinking. Depends ALOT who you are dealing with.
This won't work against any half medium thinking player. However, it could be more +ev to call vs a braindead aggrofish, but that is the only category of player it would be best against.
I do think its possible that shoving PF is more +EV than flatting here. I think it's close because our hand plays v well in position against a wide range and bad opponent (i.e. we can get value from worse hands and save chips against better on the whole). There is a decent amount of Tx and Qx that may call our shove PF though and his folding range has a bunch of equity so its nice to just take down the bloated pot PF.
I think I would just flat Q8-, but the more I think about it the more I like shoving QTo here against someone we think is opening too wide and maybe making mistakes vs our shove.
I know it's not really relevant to this video. But could you do a quick video (or just explain here) on how you use the labels on Pokerstars? In other words, I see that you have labelled (coloured) a lot of the players at the tables, so I'm thinking what colour do you label the many kind of players, and how you determine which player get what colour?
I do label players myself, but I normally only use two colours: whether he's a regular, og a recreational player (in other words, losing or winning player) - and I think that I could make much better use of those colours/labels.
I'm not going to explain my colour coding completely because I don't want to give too many specific reads on players in the video since they don't know they are being recorded. The main thing to consider is how your colour coding works in conjunction with your HUD, your written notes, and your memory. These are the main tools we use to make reads quickly and effectively and we want them to all work in harmony.
I like to prompt certain lines of thinking and questioning with my colour coding. For instance, in cash games I will colour code all pro short stackers the same colour. Even though short stackers all play differently, I know to start thinking about strategy vs 40-60bb play and can instantly consider some of the reads I have on short stackers general strategy. I will colour code by skill as well, giving fish and good regs a couple different colours each. A lot of this can speak to their PF aggression so if you're multi-tabling on a Sunday you can look at a table and almost get a feel for how PF will play just by observing how the colours are arranged.
The most important thing is that your colour coding system works for you, because if it doesn't you just won't use it as much as you could be. So take some time to consider how your brain works and how you can prompt it to consider relevant lines of logic and questioning.
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29:35 - you gotta shove that QT for "protection". It's not like you are floating and leaving 3,4k to the turn in a 6,9k pot.
And he will most likely bet/call ALOT of things, all pockets, alot of Ax and probably all broadways. No need to "slowplay", you have no range to protect here and you are not folding any turn and no one will expect that you do.
So you are just letting hands like for example J8 just freeroll to the turn and pick up a jack 6% of the time or an open-ended/or/flushdraw with great EQ and that's kind of a disaster when it's 6850 in the middle and you have 3479 in the stack and it's a tournament. You would definitely prefer a fold on the flop vs a hand like that rather then hope he shoves an Ace turn with no EQ, because that will happen much more rarely I feel.
Why would he shove any turn with any hand? Makes no sense to me, you are obviously not folding any turn when you flat the flop. I think it is a substanially higher chance that he TILT-gets-it-in with a J8+backdoorfd if you minraise flop than him seeing a 2c turn and knowing he is very very likely to have 3 outs or drawing dead and just shove it in.
You can just minraise to 4000 on the flop just for a psychological tilt-reason, I actually like that more than a shove just because of that reason.
When you flat that flop with that stack I would surely put you on Tx or a MONSTER KK/AA you flatted pre, so me having 49hh would just checkfold the best turn I could get which was a 9, because I obviously only have 3 outs and im definitely not calling of 3,5k with 3 outs.
"you are obviously not folding any turn when you flat the flop." Does villain know that ? nope ;)
This is what villain thinking process looks like:
"We are almost allin, maybe he is gonna fold some A high, I dont want to check with this little behind, maybe he is gonna shove me with bluff hand if I check to him, I can get lucky and hit river if he calls, I have a lot of chips anyway."
DeSalle,
Upon re-watching I think I did a pretty bad job explaining the hand and I think you raise some good points.
I said that you should play this hand this way against any opponent, but I didn't explain that a big reason that is true is because the bet size our opponent chose on the flop says a lot about what type of opponent he is (probably a bad one). He should not be making a bet of that size with any hand, so if he's making what I consider to be a pretty bad bet on the flop, then he's given me plenty of reason to think we can exploit him into making another significant mistake on the turn. I suppose this is also somewhat true of pf, where I do not think many good thinking regs are 3xing this shallow (altho I don't think its awful). Most good thinking opponents would bet much smaller on this dry of a flop, which would give us much more room to play and have a flatting range, so the hand changes a bunch if the villain bets a more standard size.
You are right we are taking on some risk with our line, but I don't think we ever really let him check fold a hand on the turn that he was getting in on the flop. Ax, two over cards, and PPs will likely all shove the turn if they were calling the flop. The only other hands that have some equity are Kx and Jx which only have one chance to hit one over card. You are right that them hitting an oesd or fd and shoving is about neutral EV for us, but its not that bad. Maybe its slightly bad on the whole when they turn an 8/9 out draw. But they also will turn a lot of gutters which will almost always shove the turn. And he may potentially just shove J hi or K hi that doesn't improve on the turn. So I do think the risk is justified by the reward. Against a much better opponent who might make less mistakes, we might be better off not giving a free card, but again I don't think that opponent ever uses this flop sizing.
Then he has another big chunk of hands which are undercards and they can pretty much do nothing but make -EV or neutral plays on the turn no matter what the card is. So I'm happy to free roll on that too. Especially when the board is paired and any turned pair will only have 2 outs.
I agree w/ most things you said about min raising vs shoving the flop. Tilting people into bad decisions is a real consideration.
that is really really optimistic thinking. Depends ALOT who you are dealing with.
This won't work against any half medium thinking player. However, it could be more +ev to call vs a braindead aggrofish, but that is the only category of player it would be best against.
IMO easy shove pre and I think it's maxEV vs. this aggro opponent.
You can't float a lot with this stacksize, you just have to hit a draw or better to get paid.
With a shove pre you'll increase your stack by 30% and when he's opening that wide, he will fold a lot to your shove.
I do think its possible that shoving PF is more +EV than flatting here. I think it's close because our hand plays v well in position against a wide range and bad opponent (i.e. we can get value from worse hands and save chips against better on the whole). There is a decent amount of Tx and Qx that may call our shove PF though and his folding range has a bunch of equity so its nice to just take down the bloated pot PF.
I think I would just flat Q8-, but the more I think about it the more I like shoving QTo here against someone we think is opening too wide and maybe making mistakes vs our shove.
Hi Todd.
I know it's not really relevant to this video. But could you do a quick video (or just explain here) on how you use the labels on Pokerstars? In other words, I see that you have labelled (coloured) a lot of the players at the tables, so I'm thinking what colour do you label the many kind of players, and how you determine which player get what colour?
I do label players myself, but I normally only use two colours: whether he's a regular, og a recreational player (in other words, losing or winning player) - and I think that I could make much better use of those colours/labels.
kindly Tórður.
I'm not going to explain my colour coding completely because I don't want to give too many specific reads on players in the video since they don't know they are being recorded. The main thing to consider is how your colour coding works in conjunction with your HUD, your written notes, and your memory. These are the main tools we use to make reads quickly and effectively and we want them to all work in harmony.
I like to prompt certain lines of thinking and questioning with my colour coding. For instance, in cash games I will colour code all pro short stackers the same colour. Even though short stackers all play differently, I know to start thinking about strategy vs 40-60bb play and can instantly consider some of the reads I have on short stackers general strategy. I will colour code by skill as well, giving fish and good regs a couple different colours each. A lot of this can speak to their PF aggression so if you're multi-tabling on a Sunday you can look at a table and almost get a feel for how PF will play just by observing how the colours are arranged.
The most important thing is that your colour coding system works for you, because if it doesn't you just won't use it as much as you could be. So take some time to consider how your brain works and how you can prompt it to consider relevant lines of logic and questioning.
QTo has to be a jam otf and nothing else, like as if he folds any pair or Ax cuz we have a 3 when we jam
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