Becoming a Boss: BB vs UTG

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Becoming a Boss: BB vs UTG

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Luke Johnson

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Becoming a Boss: BB vs UTG

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Luke Johnson

POSTED Aug 13, 2021

Luke Johnson aka Clanty is back with a new edition of his Becoming a Boss series this time discussing how to defend the BB vs early position on the flop. He first breaks down the spot and discusses how defending and c-betting frequencies differ compared to BTN vs BB and then heads straight into a training session.

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Ladezzz 3 years, 7 months ago

Hi Luke, great video as always!
I have a question about 7d7c @ AsTd5c. You said that it’s the best suits because of blockers to TPs and because of blockers to bdfd. Why blocking bdfd is good? Isn’t it a blockers to villian’s bluffing range which is bad with our value-hand?

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

Whilst we are blocking the bluffs, we are in turn blocking them from barrelling into us. Our hand is almost always going to xf the turn, so by having the blockers, we allow ourselves to realise more EV by removing their barrel comboes OTT.

RunItTw1ce 3 years, 6 months ago

11:30 with 6d5d on the As 8d 3c flop you mentioned spades are preferred. I think it's actually diamond and clubs that are preferred so you block some Ad6d / Ad5d type hands. I checked this on wizard for some other hands like 8s6s vs 8c6c and the clubs are preferred and I think it's because it blocks hands like Ac8c, where having spades doesn't block UTG's top pair / two pair region.

21:00 with the A3c on the A76r I think this was a major leak of mine not that long ago. I was focused a lot of robust equity of making straights and flushes on future streets. You can see in the your sim the A8c is 15% vs the A3c around 3%. I think it's just reverse implieds of being up against A6s A7s type hands, where improving to better two pair is going to be more likely than improving to a bdsd / bdfd. Also maybe it's blocking some outs to T9s that has a gutter + bdfd? You did mention in this hand that having the 8 above the 2nd pair is "really showing itself." I just wanted to point out this was a big leak of mine in the past floating more hands such as under cards that had bdsd bdfd over two over cards that can make a pair on future streets.

The other hand @ 24min Jd8d on Qs-9d-6c throws me off a bit because above I said the 6d5d is preferred blocking the Ad6d/Ad5d combos but here the Js8s is preferred over Jd8d. I thought blocking QJd would have some impact as I don't think UTG is opening QJo very often. I am not sure why gutters prefer to have the top suite to the board but under cards prefer not having the top suite. If you can help me understand this a bit more.

I saw something like this on Shaun's video for range construction OOP in SRP for cbetting. Where on Q65cc middling pairs i.e 8c8x prefer small bet or check / call but 8x8x (no club) just prefers betting a more medium size. Then with over pairs KcKx is preferred over not having a club. So it's really tricky where over pairs want a club, 2nd pair doesn't want a club, and I think under pairs prefer a club again. With draws OE you want to double block the suites to the board and with bdfd you want to have the suite to the top pair. I am not sure if I got this all correct or not, but my question is how do you know when you want the suite to the top pair on the flop vs not wanting it? In my mind it switches back and forth. Over pairs want the club on Q65cc. Tp with club kicker checks more because it needs less protection. 2nd pair check calls more often with a club and bets more without a club. under pairs prefer to have a club getting hands with a higher club to fold like AxJc? The suites make my mind feel like a pinball machine.

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

11:30 with 6d5d on the As 8d 3c flop you mentioned spades are preferred. I think it's actually diamond and clubs that are preferred so you block some Ad6d / Ad5d type hands. I checked this on wizard for some other hands like 8s6s vs 8c6c and the clubs are preferred and I think it's because it blocks hands like Ac8c, where having spades doesn't block UTG's top pair / two pair region.

My solve does not agree with your thoughts. See 13:49

21:00 with the A3c on the A76r I think this was a major leak of mine not that long ago. I was focused a lot of robust equity of making straights and flushes on future streets. You can see in the your sim the A8c is 15% vs the A3c around 3%. I think it's just reverse implieds of being up against A6s A7s type hands, where improving to better two pair is going to be more likely than improving to a bdsd / bdfd. Also maybe it's blocking some outs to T9s that has a gutter + bdfd? You did mention in this hand that having the 8 above the 2nd pair is "really showing itself." I just wanted to point out this was a big leak of mine in the past floating more hands such as under cards that had bdsd bdfd over two over cards that can make a pair on future streets.

Your leak is well rooted, though. You are right to focus on the backdoor robust equity. However, in this case, it just needs to be a little stronger.

I saw something like this on Shaun's video for range construction OOP in SRP for cbetting. Where on Q65cc middling pairs i.e 8c8x prefer small bet or check / call but 8x8x (no club) just prefers betting a more medium size. Then with over pairs KcKx is preferred over not having a club. So it's really tricky where over pairs want a club

It is tricky yes. We typically want the extra club (the extra EV) when our hand is vulnerable. Hence, when cbF IP SRP, we'd prefer having the BDFD, however, when cbF OOP 3BP, we'd rather allow villain the possibility of villain holding it.

RunItTw1ce 3 years, 6 months ago

47:50 with AsJd on the KsQd4c board I thought maybe double blocking the back door flush draws would be a good thing, but looks like hearts are preferred then clubs. I guess against a PSB blocking the back door flush draws is less relevant than blocking some of the top pair combos like AhKh KhJh. Getting a little confused now because at 24 min with out J8d gutter solver was preferring to have the top suite, but against PSB now it was to unblock back door flush draws and block more of the suited top pair region? Seems to be opposite advice with AJo On KQ4r vs J8d on Q96r. Not sure what is going on.

Couple of notes I am taking to try and understand this video better:
1) under cards that have bdfd + bdsd want to mostly raise or fold (no calling) and unblock the top suite i.e the 65d on As8d3c board prefers diamonds > clubs > spades.

2) Gutters + bdfd do not care about blocking top pair and prefer the top suite i.e Js8s > Jd8d on Qs-9d-6c.

3) Off suite gutters AsJd on Ks-Qd-4c want to block more of the top pair region so hearts > clubs > diamonds > spades and do not care about blocking bdfd.

4) Two tone flops As-Kd-9s board with gutters QsJx or QxJs want to have bdfd and do not care about blocking top pair of the same suite and without spades close to pure fold vs PSB

55:45 On the Ks-Td-6s board you mentioned the K5-K2 are doing more raising as a "bluff to be clear." I think this is still a value raise, but K9-K7 have the bdsd and possible can improve to a better two pair if opponent has a hand like K6s? now K9-K7 don't want to get 3 bet off their equity on the flop. So I do think K5-K2 is raising for value / protection and not as a bluff, but vs a 3bet they do not care as much about getting blown off their equity.

56:30 on the KsQs7d board mentioned K9 is folding because negative blockers to bluffing range. Then On Jd-9s-3s mention 43h is better hand to have to unblock the bluffing range. I think negative blockers is a part of it, but also having outs to improve that are more clean. The K9 suffers making trips because it still loses to AK KQ KJ on a KQ7-K run out and the 9 suffers because on a KQ79 run out you lose to J10 so reverse implieds when you improve to trips or two pair. Where the 43 making trips or two pair is more clean vs over pairs or hands like AJ because you are not sharing any of the outs that improve to straights. So you will see on J93ss that 43s > K3s. 96s > 97s. etc want a pair that has a kicker that doesn't make 2 pair and complete straights on the turn.

Not going to apologize for my long comments this time. As you enjoyed making this video and learning a lot. I enjoyed watching and learning a lot as well. I do hope you renew your contract as your videos are some of the best on the site!

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

47:50 with AsJd on the KsQd4c board I thought maybe double blocking the back door flush draws would be a good thing, but looks like hearts are preferred then clubs. I guess against a PSB blocking the back door flush draws is less relevant than blocking some of the top pair combos like AhKh KhJh. Getting a little confused now because at 24 min with out J8d gutter solver was preferring to have the top suite, but against PSB now it was to unblock back door flush draws and block more of the suited top pair region? Seems to be opposite advice with AJo On KQ4r vs J8d on Q96r. Not sure what is going on.

You are close. Try to scale your thoughts against how often IP will cbet. w/ AJ, IP isn't allowed to start bombing random heart combos, therefore, the heart functions as a nice unblocker. However, if IP were allowed to bomb random heart combos all the same as other suits, you'd prefer the double blocker combos.

55:45 On the Ks-Td-6s board you mentioned the K5-K2 are doing more raising as a "bluff to be clear." I think this is still a value raise

How can we be making a thin value raise when our hand is 0ev between raise/call/fold?

56:30 on the KsQs7d board mentioned K9 is folding because negative blockers to bluffing range. Then On Jd-9s-3s mention 43h is better hand to have to unblock the bluffing range. I think negative blockers is a part of it, but also having outs to improve that are more clean. The K9 suffers making trips because it still loses to AK KQ KJ on a KQ7-K run out and the 9 suffers because on a KQ79 run out you lose to J10 so reverse implieds when you improve to trips or two pair. Where the 43 making trips or two pair is more clean vs over pairs or hands like AJ because you are not sharing any of the outs that improve to straights. So you will see on J93ss that 43s > K3s. 96s > 97s. etc want a pair that has a kicker that doesn't make 2 pair and complete straights on the turn.

Agreed, cleaner outs are definitely factoring in with our continue. Nice job, thanks.

Not going to apologize for my long comments this time. As you enjoyed making this video and learning a lot. I enjoyed watching and learning a lot as well. I do hope you renew your contract as your videos are some of the best on the site!

Never need to apologise for long comments. Enjoyed reading, and did have a helpful reminder re. cleaner outs w/ 43.

Cheers RunItTw1ce

RunItTw1ce 3 years, 6 months ago

How can we be making a thin value raise when our hand is 0ev between raise/call/fold?

55:45 On the Ks-Td-6s board you mentioned the K5-K2 are doing more raising as a "bluff to be clear." I think this is still a value raise

what wizard is showing for EV

call / raise with top pair has more EV than folding.
Edit: I guess only with back door flush it has more EV than folding... DUh!!!! I must be too tired or something. Your point is taken. I see the other suites are now 0EV and calling can be negative EV at least on wizard.

My solve does not agree with your thoughts. See 13:49

The other comment with 65d. I am not sure what I was looking at before because now wizard is matching what you have as well. I must of select positions wrong or sizing wrong not sure.

Thanks as always for the response.

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

Edit: I guess only with back door flush it has more EV than folding... DUh!!!! I must be too tired or something. Your point is taken. I see the other suites are now 0EV and calling can be negative EV at least on wizard.

We all have brainfarts. It's no big deal :)

Thanks as always for the response.

RunItTw1ce You are very welcome!

Demondoink 3 years, 6 months ago

hey man, excellent video as usual! i've taken almost a month off and the first video i decided to watch to get the poker juices flowing again was your most recent one.

at first i thought it was just another drill video that is kinda pointless for people with scripts and PIO 2 as they can simply do it themselves, but that psb portion was really eye opening so i definitely learned something new.

on a different note, do you know what has happened to Sauce? has he stopped coaching on RIO? that would be a great shame, and hopefully he is simply taking time off as he hasn't posted in a while.

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

Demondoink Hey :)

hey man, excellent video as usual! i've taken almost a month off and the first video i decided to watch to get the poker juices flowing again was your most recent one.

:) I'm honoured!

Do you mean month away from RIO, or from Pokering altogether?

at first i thought it was just another drill video that is kinda pointless for people with scripts and PIO 2 as they can simply do it themselves, but that psb portion was really eye opening so i definitely learned something new.

Glad you learned something new.

Do not agree with it being otherwise pointless, though. Watching a video is a nice way to change things up from the usual routine. I do plan to do some GTO trainer videos in PIO2 soon. I hope you will give them a chance!

on a different note, do you know what has happened to Sauce? has he stopped coaching on RIO? that would be a great shame, and hopefully he is simply taking time off as he hasn't posted in a while.

No news I'm afraid

Gl at the tables (Y)

Demondoink 3 years, 6 months ago

Luke Johnson nah i took a month off as i was doing some hiking/camping and then went down to London for a week as well. not quite the usual Summer holiday abroad but it has to suffice! haha.

i do really enjoy watching training videos as studying using PIO can get a little tedious sometimes, i just meant that watching someone do drills is not overly appealing to me because i can easily just do them myself. i do realise that not everybody has PIO 2 or GTO Trainer though so i am sure they would enjoy them more as it's something different for them. like i said though, you had utilised some different sizings in your pre flop sims so it was pretty cool to see the response from the bb's perspective vs sizings that are not currently in my arsenal.

ah okay, i'll try find out from somebody else. RIO wouldn't be the same without him!

ty, you too! just no more owning me with AK high call downs please :D though in reality i think we both played that hand well haha.

SoundSpeed 3 years, 6 months ago

Excellent video. I learned quite a bit.

At 15:00 you talk about solver likes to raise q8 as it has back door eq. So is this a bluff? I don't see worse calling often or better folding and we will get 3 bet occasionally and have to fold or get called a lot and face a crappy decision on the turn.

At 45:55 I understand solver wants to defend 43 but in the real world we have no eq realization. I'm not so sure this would work out well.

Thanks.

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

SoundSpeed Hey :)

Excellent video. I learned quite a bit.

Good!

At 15:00 you talk about solver likes to raise q8 as it has back door eq. So is this a bluff? I don't see worse calling often or better folding and we will get 3 bet occasionally and have to fold or get called a lot and face a crappy decision on the turn.

Good question. It would be vs a PSB. Vs a block it's an equity push with strong blockers. Similar to 4bing AKo COvsBTN.

You are right that we have a crappy decision on the turn. However, that is invariable between XR and XC.

At 45:55 I understand solver wants to defend 43 but in the real world we have no eq realization. I'm not so sure this would work out well.

Why do we have no equity reality in "the real world"?

SoundSpeed 3 years, 6 months ago

Hi Luke Johnson

Regarding the 43 spot I should rephrase...we will have a hard time realizing eq in actual gameplay.

I think our pr of 3s is just going to face a ton of pressure and we end up cf turn or river more often than not. It seems we hope the hand chks down or we find a spot to turn our hand ino a bluff.

If I know a spot is solver approved but that spot will be difficult to play I tend to pass on the spot. I wonder if that might be a huge leak?

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

Regarding the 43 spot I should rephrase...we will have a hard time realizing eq in actual gameplay.

Agreed. This will not run as smoothly as XC'ing vs 1/3p in LP. That does not mean we should fold, though!

I think our pr of 3s is just going to face a ton of pressure and we end up cf turn or river more often than not. It seems we hope the hand chks down or we find a spot to turn our hand ino a bluff.

Turn yes. However, we will often probe river and take down the pot vs a turn XB with our unblockers to villain's folding range.

If I know a spot is solver approved but that spot will be difficult to play I tend to pass on the spot. I wonder if that might be a huge leak?

Not a huge leak no. However, I do believe it to be poor form. Usually these arguments are very subjective and biased. For instance, if you're UTG and BB XC's vs a PSB, would you now be more or less willing to fire turn knowing he's got such a strong range already? I'd imagine the general pop at least hesitates, which could mean that 43 potentially overrealises via flop peel.

Note that I am not stating this as fact. Instead, I am presenting another side to the argument, as you were likely only looking for reasons to overfold an uncomfortable spot.

Good luck!

Deactivated User 3 years, 6 months ago

Great video as always.

I've seen a lot of Hs regulars using different sizing's to justify their plays.
When you reviewed previously the hu video against Buttonclickr.
He used a 33, 50 sizing on different board structures.

You weren't sure if that was good.
And when you reviewed the hand , you notice that the EV is more preferable in PIO.

Is their a specific reason you choose to use only a 27,70,132 sizing in your sim?

Cheers.

Luke Johnson 3 years, 6 months ago

Hi Hellkid13

When you reviewed previously the hu video against Buttonclickr.
He used a 33, 50 sizing on different board structures.

Can you remind me of the video and timestamp please?

Is their a specific reason you choose to use only a 27,70,132 sizing in your sim?

27% and 70% are more quality of life than anything else; 27% catches 1/4p and 1/3p and 70% catches 2/3p and 3/4p. There's not going to be any EV difference between 27% and 33%, nor 75% and 70%, etc.

50% isn't included in later streets to avoid the sims being too big and clunky. It can easily be subtree'd in, as I often do!

SoundSpeed 3 years, 6 months ago

Well stated Luke. I often do not look at what my action might look like to my opponent and how that might affect what they do or what opportunities it may present me in the future. Sure I am in an uncomfortable spot, but so may my opponent be if I call. Good lesson.

JACKraceLUKE 3 years, 1 month ago

Hi Luke, I just signed up to annual Elite recently and been really enjoying your videos. The way you present your content is excellent. very clear language that delivers a huge amount of information in short time even in live play videos - very impressive! I also love your heuristics for frequent spots - extremely helpful. thanks so much for sharing!

I do have a question about flop XR sizing in SRP:
I saw you using one sizing only in those sims. Do you think its fine to just always go with a "standard" 50%pot? When i played around with PIO i found that it prefers bigger XR sizing on certain board textures like for example dry Axx, Kxx.
The way i thought about it so far was: if we can "attack" villains overcards (broadway region) that has quite some EQ i go with a small XR.
Then on highcard boards(no connector straight & not mono), we go big to "attack" one pair hands/charge draws. Is this logic off?

cheers.

Luke Johnson 3 years, 1 month ago

Hi Luke

Hi JACKraceLUKE

I just signed up to annual Elite recently and been really enjoying your videos. The way you present your content is excellent. very clear language that delivers a huge amount of information in short time even in live play videos - very impressive! I also love your heuristics for frequent spots - extremely helpful. thanks so much for sharing!

Fantastic! Very glad to hear you are enjoying your subscription so far.

Also, thank you very much for the feedback and compliments :)

I do have a question about flop XR sizing in SRP:
I saw you using one sizing only in those sims. Do you think its fine to just always go with a "standard" 50%pot? When i played around with PIO i found that it prefers bigger XR sizing on certain board textures like for example dry Axx, Kxx.
The way i thought about it so far was: if we can "attack" villains overcards (broadway region) that has quite some EQ i go with a small XR.
Then on highcard boards(no connector straight & not mono), we go big to "attack" one pair hands/charge draws. Is this logic off?

Over the years, I've been a little back and forth re. my decision for flop XR sizes. Ultimately, it is optimal to use several sizes, covering all the different board textures. The main issue with this is practicality; it is very time consuming run all the boards, aggregate and discover sizing patterns, and then re-run, for all the different SRP situations. Furthermore, the EV difference is quite marginal (you should be able to see for yourself), and what happens if we are IP and villain uses the wrong XR sizing into us? Therefore, I have chosen to just stick with xr50% (I've found it to be the most convenient "single" sizing).

Hope this answers your questions.

Cheers

Luke / Clanty

omgalbertojoao 2 years, 11 months ago

Just finish the Becoming a Boss series pretty entertaining to watch.

I would like to request a PIO overview of CBET spots where solver uses really big sizes and how he splits between various sizes on this flops and how to defend versus that or maybe some turn and river overview also. This would be more of an "abstract thing" to get like a bigger picture about how solver would "think" about it given more flop size options. Think that would be very interesting so see and listen to your thoughts

In practice would be very hard to apply but think the Big overview would make that we would be able to adapt better versus different players types that are more forgiving when we make a mistake.

Think I just requested a 10 part series :P

Thanks for the content.

Luke Johnson 2 years, 11 months ago

Just finish the Becoming a Boss series pretty entertaining to watch.

Hey omgalbertojoao :) happy to hear you enjoyed :)

I would like to request a PIO overview of CBET spots where solver uses really big sizes and how he splits between various sizes on this flops and how to defend versus that or maybe some turn and river overview also. This would be more of an "abstract thing" to get like a bigger picture about how solver would "think" about it given more flop size options. Think that would be very interesting so see and listen to your thoughts

In practice would be very hard to apply but think the Big overview would make that we would be able to adapt better versus different players types that are more forgiving when we make a mistake.

Think I just requested a 10 part series :P

Nice ideas, thank you! Instead of making a series, I will try to include them as talking points inside future videos, as I do not think this warrants a series in of itself.

Cheers omgalbertojoao :)

LiveCashGuy 2 years, 8 months ago

Luke, I have never seen someone explain (in a way that's understandable) blockers/unblockers in the manner that you do. Awesome work. I really like the "Becoming a Boss" series and hopefully there will be more added to it, thank you!

Luke Johnson 2 years, 8 months ago

Hey LiveCashGuy sorry for the late reply on this!

Luke, I have never seen someone explain (in a way that's understandable) blockers/unblockers in the manner that you do. Awesome work. I really like the "Becoming a Boss" series and hopefully there will be more added to it, thank you!

Brilliant! I'm extremely glad that you find it digestible. One of my main concerns when making this series was that it may just be too 'heavy' and boring. However, the feedback from the series has been overwhelmingly positive :)

TRUEPOWER a year ago

Great video luke!

It’s interesting because it’s not a spot I’ve done much study in either vs the pot sized flop bet utg vs bb, online, it’s not as common, however it is a line I’ve seen in live games!

Luke Johnson a year ago

As mentioned previously, we typically want to pay more/most of our attention to the more common tree's, that is BTNvsBB SRP, BvB SRP and the SBvsBTN + BBvsBTN OOP 3BP's -- all LP tree's. As such, the UTG tree's become a lot less loved and understood ( :( ). To me this seems like a reasonable trade-off for the interim, though. After LP is 'complete' we can move into more EP studies.

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