Becoming a Boss: C-Betting the Turn
Posted by Luke Johnson
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How do you get the trainer to show 6 positions? makes it easier to visualize compared to only 2 positions.
Click "Edit pack info", select 6-max table and tick the positions you'd like
Some of these spots with suit dynamics get very complicated to me.
Would you be able to make a video and follow up on some of the higher frequency turn barrels to see what they do on various rivers, especially blank rivers with our bluffing hands?
I like the term "full house mine". I know I can be devoid of rivered boats when the turn is a scary card and i don't barrel sets or 2pr enough.
Thanks!
Yes, they can be!
I will be making a wrap-up episode at the end of the series, so look out for that.
As for a specific follow-up OTR via high freq CBets, I recommend you to study this in GTO Trainer.
Glad you like it and can relate. Note that the 2p will almost boat mine, it's a plan with sets only, drawing to the 10 outs
Welcome as always :)
7:45 I like how you pointed out you block J8d T8d and some AdXd hands and unblock QJs QTs hands that fold. My first inclination was to barrel a suit that is not on the board to unblock the XC XF range. But I guess on paired boards we want to block trips.
Sorry missed this comment RunItTw1ce
Yep, this is correct. We wouldn't always need to priorise betting trips. It depends how polarised we are.
Just wanted to point out that black box throughout the video blocking the flop texture when looking at PIO is extremely annoying when I can't remember what the board texture is when analyzing the PIO output.
Hey RunItTw1ce sorry for this, have forwarded to the editor
Sorry about this guys! The new version has been uploaded where nothing should be blocked anymore. Thx for pointing it out RunItTw1ce
29:15 Why does As5x barrel but not As3x pure check?
Off suite flush draw region
As5x beats lower 5x, that will xc turn, at showdown
* 34:35* On QQ32 you mentioned The J9h / T9h combos matching the suit of the turn barrels 70% of the time. I was wondering about the volatility of these hands compared to using a BXB line. I face some very strange lines some times where I'll find these bluffs on the turn and improve to a pair on the river, but then face a 1/3 or 1/2 donk bet. I think I pay off these river donk bets too often. Same thing happens with a lot of JJ-77 combos where I barrel the turn with a plan to check back quite a few rivers, but end up facing a donk bet. I am not sure how to proceed in these situations.
These middling pairs I speak up on the river being 3rd pair and even some TX are indifferent vs this donk bet on wizard, but then again the donk bet shouldn't exist, so run into solver noise.
Larger image
RunItTw1ce Sorry to dismiss your question, nobody ever donks OTR here. If they do then they're a rec and we auto call.
This isn't to say donking is bad in theory (honestly idk if it's legit on QQ32T via XCXC), but it's not a practical point of study
48min you gave solver like 50, 70, 133 sizes. Do you not use 33% size on 4 liners?
Wizard solution
No, as I do not mix turn. If you do, then it seems like a good strategy to do something like b33 & b150. EV return will be fractionally higher and IMO not worth it, unless you're also delving into exploits, too.
Volume count:
B33 = 3.65bb @ 23.4% freq = .85bb cbet volume
B175 = 19.25bb @ 6.1 freq = 1.17bb cbet volume
B250 = 27.5bb @ 6.5% freq = 1.78bb cbet volume
As you can see, bigger is better
49min you mentioned on KsQd9s-9h that A2c would be a high frequency barrel. I think your mind is heading in the right direction with these types of bluffs, but on boards that don't already have the straight possible because we have more GS type hands to choose from for our bluffs.
If you change the board to KQ88 using the same suits, now A2c will barrel.
screen shot
Very cool takeaway, thanks! This isn't something I've noticed before!
Oh, thanks!
A video on the "high-low" or "over-under" bluffs as I call them would be interesting. I'm used to seeing them more on rainbow dry boards where there are not a lot of draws to choose from. But you get middling pairs to fold and draws to call. So called by worse and fold out better. But there are no elite videos on these and are often over looked. Not sure if anyone knows how to use them correctly.
Can you share the excel sheet? I am doing the same training as you to get better and the excel file would be useful
Hey LuminoI DM me
At one point in the video you said that you couldn't remove a turn donking range with a turn subtree, and that instead you would have to re-do the whole sim. Could you explain briefly why that was the case please?
On the theme of donking - we saw a number of spots where the BB should have a decent donking range on the turn. That would also affect IP's turn cbetting strategy significantly. I'm sure at the stakes you are playing that most regs will find the turn donks, especially the more common or higher frequency donking spots. But at midstakes and lower it can be difficult to know whether a reg has turn donks or not, so it's difficult to know what turn cbet strategy to use as IP. Do you have any advice on how to deal with this?
IP will bet flop with the knowledge that they will sometimes be donked into OTT. Similarly, OOP will XC flop with the knowledge that they will sometimes donk out OTT. This skews IP's range be a little tighter, and OOP's range to be a little wider. If we then remove the turn donk opportunity, IP has an unjust advantage.
Timing's and history with the player are my go to's. If you either know a player has a history of donking (and more specifically, how they donk. e.g. is it only board pairs, or also flush/straight turns?), or took a noticeable amount of time before checking, then then likely had a turn donking range.
Admittedly, I am not super sharp at thinking between the two lenses live in hands. What is optimal is to consider an IP betting range with and without OOP having turn leads. Naturally, including leads for OOP, despite them checking, allows us to be more liberal with our bets.
On the KQ99 board near the end you were trying to work out why K9 would cbet turn more often than Q9, despite K9 blocking more of the BB calling range. Whilst it's not massively significant, I did find it interesting. I had a few theories:
K9 blocks some of the BB river bets, whereas Q9 unblocks them. IP will therefore face more bets on the river with Q9 than K9. Important to note that BB only bets the block sizing though with top pair hands.
In your sim IP was checking turn with KK reasonably often. This prevents BB from blocking river for value with KX then having a really profitably 3bet shove vs a raise. By checking back Q9 on the turn you prevent BB from block/3betting river with QX profitably. QQ bets turn ~pure, so Q9 acts as the trap here instead.
matlittle Quite an epic insight here, thanks!
Indeed Q9 gets to 2bR and get THICK value from OOP's rag Kx.
Actually, OOP can bet 2/3p with some Kx and then bet-3b (namely KJ KT K2). So Q9 manages to induce a full stack here which it also unblocks. Very cool.
And yes, KK blocks these bets OTR, so instead goes for immediate value now. Nice work! matlittle
Sick content Luke, nicely explained. Would love to see some delayed nodes if possible :)
Hey mx404 it's in the plans :)
on 13:55 when facing weird output, you mentioned
and conclude your version of poker wants to almost pure check KK here.
Just curious for players who is not as experienced as you, how do we differentiate if the output is "weird and not belong to my version" or is there something important that I might overlook from the sim?
Thank you!
Good comment mx404
Like anything, we have to start somewhere. The more experienced we become at our version, presumably the stronger it gets and the more confidence we have to deviate from GTO. Anecdotally, you should pick up patterns in your (typical) preferences regarding betting/raising, these are invaluable as you'll begin to pick up traction and speed in your ability to live solve what YOU want to do.
Love these videos!
9876 board you stressed the importance of betting 66 OTT so we can have boats, just wanted to note that 99 88 77 and even a good amount of 2 pair combos were also betting turn in your sim
K53Ksss As3x seemed like a natural way to have some As combos in our check range, as most other As (offsuit at least) were betting near pure
Hey Brian Hastings thank you very much :)
Have you got the timestamps for 9876/K53K, please?
9876 sim starts at 48 minutes
K53K 28:15 (do see some stronger AsXy hands checking some, AQ-AT mainly)
Will include in original comment next time, my bad
9876:
Indeed some 2p cbets, but looks like for only b50. If you instead prefer for an OB, looks like it's only sets+, drawing to 10 boat outs over of 2p's 4
K53K:
Yeah, correct, good point ty!
Hey Luke wonderful video my guy thank you
Thanks mate TRUEPOWER
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