Out Now
×

BB 3Bet vs BTN: 4-Tabling PIO

Posted by

You’re watching:

BB 3Bet vs BTN: 4-Tabling PIO

user avatar

Luke Johnson

Elite Pro

Video Player is loading.
Current Time 0:00
Loaded: 0%
Duration -:-
Remaining Time 0:00
  • descriptions off, selected

Resume Video

Start from Beginning

Watch Video

Replay Video

10

You’re watching:

BB 3Bet vs BTN: 4-Tabling PIO

user avatar

Luke Johnson

POSTED Apr 12, 2022

Inspired by a recent Kevin Rabichow video, Luke launches a study session 4-tabling versus the solver. He discusses his experience with this training approach and be assured that there's lots of strategical insights to be learned for the topic of the day: 3bet pots BB vs BTN.

44 Comments

Loading 44 Comments...

sandr1x 3 years ago

Just when you think Clanty's gonna run out of new formats and the bar is already high enough, he comes up with the new way to deliver the top notch content. That in itself is rather impressive. True versatility. The humor also helps. I literally burst out laughing at "GO BIG OR GO HOME" analogy regarding the sizing scheme.

Really enjoyed the video. Thank you for your continued efforts, Mr. Johnson.

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

Hey sandr1x !

Just when you think Clanty's gonna run out of new formats and the bar is already high enough, he comes up with the new way to deliver the top notch content. That in itself is rather impressive.

Kudos goes to Kevin as I really liked his method of playing versus the solver

The humor also helps. I literally burst out laughing at "GO BIG OR GO HOME" analogy regarding the sizing

Haha, that is the way I see it! I never intended for it to come across as funny. I will take it, though :P

Really enjoyed the video. Thank you for your continued efforts, Mr. Johnson.

Really glad you enjoyed! No problem, thank you for watching and commenting :)

Artofwar84 3 years ago

Hey Luke, what version of piosolver is needed for the format you’re using? I have the 500 dollar version and can’t seem to access the gto trainer that you’re using. Thanks for the great content!

Artofwar84 3 years ago

I have Pio2. Maybe I’m a dunce. I know sauce made a video awhile back on what he thought was the best way to study with pio. Would definitely enjoy some content on how to get better with the program.

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

If you have PIO2, then then go tools->GTO Trainer

By $500 version, you might be talking about PioPRO, which is still pio1.

Thanks for the great content!

You're welcome!

Carambalage 3 years ago

Thumbs up all the way for these vid types. If you ever do another I'd love to get some heuristics from you on some of the more uncommon spots if you have the scripts ready, CO vs BU SRPs or BU vs SB flats.

Out of curiosity what kind of error rate do you get when playing the trainer? I'm usually aiming for a 10% EV error rate before I really feel like I understand the spot reasonably well, but the 3bet pots always hit you with some nuance to throw a spanner into the proverbial

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

Thumbs up all the way for these vid types

Carambalage Awesome! I've got some more lined up :)

If you ever do another I'd love to get some heuristics from you on some of the more uncommon spots if you have the scripts ready, CO vs BU SRPs or BU vs SB flats.

I do have these scripts, and I did think about it! However, I prefer making and releasing content in area's I already feel confident enough to coach in, so that I can let viewers in on the heuristics, etc. If I were to do COvsBTN OOP SRP, I feel I'd almost be learning as I'm playing, and it wouldn't be as educational. What do you guys think? I'm open to making if enough people are interested in seeing me suffer in these more tricky spots vs the solver haha

Out of curiosity what kind of error rate do you get when playing the trainer? I'm usually aiming for a 10% EV error rate before I really feel like I understand the spot reasonably well, but the 3bet pots always hit you with some nuance to throw a spanner into the proverbial

Tbh I don't know, I never really track it. What do you mean by 10% EV error rate?

shipapotamus 3 years ago

Luke Johnson Since you were wondering, you can show the betsizes in percentages by going Tools -> Configuration -> Data presentation - Betsizes -> in GTO Trainer. But in case your trainer window is too small for all the betsizes then it won't show the betsizes in %.

matlittle 3 years ago

FYI PIO trainer now has a built in RNG that you have to enable in Configuration -> GTO Trainer. You also tell it whether low or high numbers are for aggression, and then it will tell you mixing errors.

41.45 663ss
You mention here that you wouldn't play a raising range on the flop, given that PIO is only raising ~3% of the time. What is the minimum % of raises that PIO plays before you will play a raising range as part of your game?

45.40 986ss3
Here you say that PIO likes a big bet sizing on the turn rather than a geometric sizing. What are the most important properties of the board that lead to a bigger than geometric sizing being used on the turn?
Draw heavy board?
Being out of position?
Polarising on the flop?

I like the idea of multi-tabling vs PIO, I have been single tabling previously like you had been but I can see the value of multi-tabling too. A similar video of SB vs EP 3BP or BB vs EP 3BP would be good for future!

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

FYI PIO trainer now has a built in RNG that you have to enable in Configuration -> GTO Trainer. You also tell it whether low or high numbers are for aggression, and then it will tell you mixing errors.

Oh that's really cool that PIO will highlight mixing errors. I will probably try it out then. In general, I don't like to see the number before I decide on the frequency, as it's easy to become swayed one way or another

41.45 663ss
You mention here that you wouldn't play a raising range on the flop, given that PIO is only raising ~3% of the time. What is the minimum % of raises that PIO plays before you will play a raising range as part of your game?

5% for me

45.40 986ss3
Here you say that PIO likes a big bet sizing on the turn rather than a geometric sizing. What are the most important properties of the board that lead to a bigger than geometric sizing being used on the turn?
Draw heavy board?
Being out of position?
Polarising on the flop?

Your question is too general. For instance, sometimes a draw heavy board will mean we want to size down, and other times we will want to size up. My best advice is to advise you against thinking of bet sizes in terms of geometrics. It is a really, really flawed system. You should be able to see this for yourself if you run some spots and allow all bet sizes.

I like the idea of multi-tabling vs PIO, I have been single tabling previously like you had been but I can see the value of multi-tabling too.

Exactly the same as me then! All thanks goes to Kevin Rabichow.

A similar video of SB vs EP 3BP or BB vs EP 3BP would be good for future!

More videos to come for OOP 3BP :)

Carambalage 3 years ago

Luke Johnson What do you mean by 10% EV error rate?

For example If I decide to play 50 hands of 3bet pots BB vs BU in a trainer and the threshold of what constitutes an EV mistake is set to 0.5% of the pot then I personally aim to get to a point where I'm making 5 or fewer EV mistakes over those 50 hands. The number of errors for a new spot will obviously start off quite high and over time will improve so it's a good way of tracking progress but absolute perfection seems unattainable so for me 10% mistake rate is an indicator I understand the spot reasonably well. However sounds like you use the trainer more as a tool for checking heuristics.

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

I see. As you say, it really depends on your knowledge of the spot. For spots I know well, like LP SRP's and 3BP's, I'd imagine I'm around 5-6% (?), but would be surprised if I'm below 10% for some EP nodes, and 4bp's, which I find a lot tougher.

In general I study vs the trainer until I feel confident in the spot, which is moreso focused upon understanding the general gameflow of the spot, instead of minding my frequency of EV errors.

I_Fold_Jacks 3 years ago

Great video. I would like to see some more A high flops done in these sims. I would also love for you to do a video in BU vs SB 3b like you metioned in the video.

BockRamsch 3 years ago

Thanks for the video. Would be helpful if you show both ranges before you start playing. I would like to think for myself what the solver output could be as well.

Entro789 3 years ago

Hey, Luke. Enjoyed the video.

@39:46 You realized that the JJ hands was a mistake, and then proceed to explain the reasons why our hand wants to jam. However, you didn't talk much about the block sizing that actually gets used a fair amount of the time too. Are you having that on your strategy or are you just jamming or checking?

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

Hey, Luke. Enjoyed the video.

Hey Entro789 glad to hear you enjoyed!

@39:46 You realized that the JJ hands was a mistake, and then proceed to explain the reasons why our hand wants to jam. However, you didn't talk much about the block sizing that actually gets used a fair amount of the time too. Are you having that on your strategy or are you just jamming or checking?

Good question. I should have explained that more clearly.

I do not mix my sizes on Flop/Turn. That is, despite having 4 sizes to pick from, I will never pick more than 1 to use. The block is indeed used slightly more often, but if you subtree for block only or shove only, shove only should yield higher EV

yiyi01 3 years ago

Hi, Luke.
Which tools do u think is better to learn a simplifier GTO strategy(1/3 pot or check otf, 1 betsizing on the turn)
simple gto trainer vs pio gto trainer?
if it is pio gto trainer, basic or pro?

Luke Johnson 3 years ago

IMO, I PIO2's GTO Trainer is the best tool. You'll need to check PIO's website on details on the different PIO products. From my understanding, there is PIO Basic, Pro and Edge, and PIO1 and PIO2 for each respective Basic, Pro and Edge version, for a total of 6 different PIO versions. I'm not sure which do and do not come with the GTO Trainer tool included.

John Jernigan 2 years, 11 months ago

I think this is bar none one of the best videos ever on RIO. Strongly strongly encourage you to do more like this.

Luke Johnson 2 years, 11 months ago

Hey John Jernigan

I think this is bar none one of the best videos ever on RIO.

Thank you very much!! The format (again thanks to Krab for the idea) is fantastic; it allows for both education and hopefully a fun watch.

Strongly strongly encourage you to do more like this.

There are more to come! Stay tuned :)

WesleySniper 2 years, 10 months ago

Hi Luke, great video! This seems like a very effective way of training as you periodize between the in-the-moment decision-making and reviewing the decisions straight after.

@14:30 table 2 you say you are gonna go 2/3p 40% of the time as a global strategy, and with JJ 86% which is 6/7. While I understand that JJ and overpairs want to bet way more than the global percentage, could you elaborate if you have a heuristic for arriving at that 6/7 or 86% here? Why fractions of 7 in particular? Is it about dividing the frequencies to fractions of 7 in general to have enough granularity and avoid "lazy mixing", and in this particular case taking the 2nd highest frequency so we don't just pure bet in this spot where the ranges run close and villain has a slight nut advantage?

Again cheers for the video! Have been really enjoying your content for the past few days.

Luke Johnson 2 years, 10 months ago

Hey WesleySniper

Hi Luke, great video! This seems like a very effective way of training as you periodize between the in-the-moment decision-making and reviewing the decisions straight after.

Thank you!

Yes I'm a huge fan of this type of study. I do at least a couple of these sessions a week.

@14:30 table 2 you say you are gonna go 2/3p 40% of the time as a global strategy, and with JJ 86% which is 6/7. While I understand that JJ and overpairs want to bet way more than the global percentage, could you elaborate if you have a heuristic for arriving at that 6/7 or 86% here? Why fractions of 7 in particular? Is it about dividing the frequencies to fractions of 7 in general to have enough granularity and avoid "lazy mixing", and in this particular case taking the 2nd highest frequency so we don't just pure bet in this spot where the ranges run close and villain has a slight nut advantage?

I find it easier to think in fractions. There's no particular reason for 6/7 (86%) instead of 9/10 (90%). It's just what was intuitive to me at the time. Viewers should interpret with a grain of salt to find their own nuances within the method

Again cheers for the video! Have been really enjoying your content for the past few days.

Thank you so much, very happy to hear this. More to come :)

RunItTw1ce 2 years, 9 months ago

Great video Luke Johnson some how I skipped over this in the past. Found 3 spots pretty interesting.
1) 6:50 Qs9s on AA9-4-T where PIO B-B-B with AT and you made a pure call down that was 50/50 mix. its a spot I'm folding the turn quite often with 9x just thinking my range is well protected by AX and people are usually not trying to barrel people off trips. Feels like a suicide board to find bluffs on.
2) 33:30 KhTh hand on a QT4dd-8-5d I'm definitely not finding value bets with AT when the flush completes.
3) 39:30 JsJx on 852ss-4s board where after you 2/3 flop and 76s and XsXs all get there, really hard to find this value bet, mostly targeting TT/99 or 8Xs I guess. Again this is just me freezing up when draws complete and hero has one pair. Potentially drawing dead.

Luke Johnson 2 years, 9 months ago

Great video Luke Johnson some how I skipped over this in the past.

Thanks mate!

1) 6:50 Qs9s on AA9-4-T where PIO B-B-B with AT and you made a pure call down that was 50/50 mix. its a spot I'm folding the turn quite often with 9x just thinking my range is well protected by AX and people are usually not trying to barrel people off trips. Feels like a suicide board to find bluffs on.

Folding turn is quite overkill. I can get behind your reasoning OTR, but again, turn is overkill.

2) 33:30 KhTh hand on a QT4dd-8-5d I'm definitely not finding value bets with AT when the flush completes.

It might feel thin, but block gives villain great odds. If you suspect they never call worse, then you can overbluff this spot, as they will be overfolding. So make sure you at least do one of the two!

39:30 JsJx on 852ss-4s board where after you 2/3 flop and 76s and XsXs all get there, really hard to find this value bet, mostly targeting TT/99 or 8Xs I guess. Again this is just me freezing up when draws complete and hero has one pair. Potentially drawing dead.

The SPR is ~1.2 and we've an overpair w/ a redraw, and block IP's bluffs. It's a clear barrel. If you can try to think about your range before your hand, you should find yourself "freezing" up a lot less often.

RunItTw1ce 2 years, 9 months ago

It might feel thin, but block gives villain great odds. If you suspect they never call worse, then you can overbluff this spot, as they will be overfolding. So make sure you at least do one of the two!

Very true! I often fall in the nothing category ;-(

_baba 2 years, 8 months ago

Luke Johnson Have been binge watching your content really impressive how much you are able to teach!
On 48:00 why does you want to slowplay 88 and fastplay QQ kinda of the oposite from the turn, for me the explaination on the turn about blocking and unblock villans bluff range made perfect sense and I would continue with this heuristic by the river. Is that because 88 blocks the x back range?

Luke Johnson 2 years, 8 months ago

Luke Johnson Have been binge watching your content really impressive how much you are able to teach!

Hey _baba thank you very much! Super happy to hear you've been enjoying and learning from my content :)

On 48:00 why does you want to slowplay 88 and fastplay QQ kinda of the oposite from the turn, for me the explaination on the turn about blocking and unblock villans bluff range made perfect sense and I would continue with this heuristic by the river. Is that because 88 blocks the x back range?

The heuristics (blocking calls, unblocking bluffs and unblocking vbets) stay the same, but the specific blocks effect flip from turn to river. See below:
OTT:
88: Via checking we can induce bluffs that we unblock, and continue to extract value from IP's vbet region that we unblock. So checking is clearly the play.
QQ: Whilst we unblock IP's vbets, we also block their bluffs. So we prefer to bet ourselves.

OTR:
88: The main consideration here is that we now heavily block IP's vbets (this is flipped from the turn after IP xb's turn) and heavily unblock their xb region. Therefore, we are more incentivised to bet.
QQ:
We still continue to block some of IP's bluffs, however, we unblock their vbets (therefore, unblock their xb range), meaning we are incentivised to check some of the time. This is mostly theoretical, though, as we shouldn't arrive w/ QQ in this line all that often

TRUEPOWER 1 year, 1 month ago

great video luke

whats great about the trainer, is you can work through hands and spots over and over again and go over the spot specifically you want to study. and you can practice without it having costing you money in game lol

Luke Johnson 1 year, 1 month ago

great video luke

Thanks mate :)

whats great about the trainer, is you can work through hands and spots over and over again and go over the spot specifically you want to study. and you can practice without it having costing you money in game lol

Yes, seriously! Playing vs effectively a super duper elite player, for free, as per my own time requests, is an incredible resource

Be the first to add a comment

You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.

Runitonce.com uses cookies to give you the best experience. Learn more about our Cookie Policy