One thing I don't understand is on the QQ hand halfway through, why do you check on the flop? The board is so draw heavy and could have hit him along with the fact there are too many scare cards later on. Surely betting would be the best option?
jiggaman611 years, 11 months agoA3s hand:
He called your all in on the turn not the flop so does that change the analysis if he is folding the turn if a spade comes?
last hand:
would it be better to bluff with your Ax hands because we have card removal to his calling range? If we do that then we end of bluffing too much so where do you draw the line? Or should we just bluff with bottom of our range type hands like you did?
Sean Fri11 years, 11 months agoI liked it. I suppose I do tend to like extended analysis of few hands rather than live sessions - I think it's more likely to change my understanding. This was very clear. Thanks.
Michael, I don't mind leading the flop with QQ it may be the best play but I as a default I check the flop when I'm not the aggressor pf. Its important to note that while leading may be the best play in a vacuum, I need to consider how it affects my checking range, because if I lead QQ it means I won't get to realize my equity or can get bluffed off the best hand with my marginal hands, i.e. QJs JTs AK.
Jigga, I do think he will fold the turn if a spade comes, so that is worth pointing out that in his shoes (if he's not folding) calling flop and calling any non spade is def a better line. I quickly ran the equities and QQ vs As3s,As4s,TdTc,ThTd,44,22,as5s,as6s,as7s,as8s has 33% equity if the turn is the 9c, and 26% equity ott if it is the 3c.
I still think he should be folding flop mainly because when I have a value hand is equity is 12% if its a set and 30% vs two pair compared to 40-50% vs my combo draws which means I need to bluffing quite a bit more often. I'll also add that while I didn't put 5s3s in my range or 5s6s for each of those combos I add I need to consider adding 24s T4s and t2s. Last point I'll make is that while I would fastplay 5s3s and 5s6s some of the time its not a great play 200bbs deep because my flush outs aren't clean, where 100bbs deep I could shrug get it in.
For the 4c5c hand, I think first off its worth pointing out that you should bluff when you think your opponent is going to fold, and if I'm getting called by AQ I probably shouldn't be bluffing anything OTR. That said from a game theory standpoint if we want to be balanced my value range OTR is AJ,66,ax6x,ax2x,22 which is 36 combos. Since he needs to be good 25% of the time to call I should be bluffing about 12 combos. You should never bluff river with AQ+ and you should probably be folding ott with some of your weakest aces, so I would suggest to keep your bluffing frequency under control shove river with Ax everytime X is under a J and you turned the NFD to keep your combos down. All theory aside don't forget that poker is about making money and you should only be bluffing if you think your opponent will fold.
FutisJuho11 years, 11 months agoInteresting video :) Seems that you have limp-call, limp-raise, limp-fold strategy at sb? Video about that strategy would be nice. Thanks.
Lucas Greenwood11 years, 11 months agoMaybe, to be honest its something I've been experimenting with and I'm not certain on my ranges as it depends quite a bit on the bb's tendencies. My limp raise value hands are fairly easy to define say 88+ AQ+, cutting off the bottom of that range vs tighter players. My bluff hands tend to be Ax that are too weak too call, as well as weak suited connectors/gappers i.e. 64s. For the limp raise bluff hands, I'd add that iI don't bluff hands that are strong enough to call i.e. T9s QJo ATo because I find they play well in single raised pots even oop and they are hands I don't want to face a 4bet with because I make my life difficult oop. Last thing I'd add is that you probably want to limpraise some hands to 5bet shove as a bluff i.e. 22 A4s.
As for a video, I'll keep my eye out for interesting hands that pop up bvb in game and when I have a few good ones I'll try and do video on it.
WM2K11 years, 11 months agoNice video. I very much appreciate you showing us some kind of range/equity analysis to back up your play and further show your thought process and reasoning.
The 5c4c hand was very interesting. Fwiw I like the bluff without reads that villain is a huge station OTR especially as we basically have the nut low making it the best candidate for a bluff. In the end though you are really owning villain in that spot.
+1 to hearing some thoughts about incorporating limping into a sb strategy. At the limits these vids are geared towards villains are still quite highly exploitable by raising a ton but there are a few villains I would consider limping against. I may start a thread about it as I m not totally sure how to go about choosing my ranges.
Lucas Greenwood11 years, 11 months agoSee what I wrote above, it is villain dependent fwiw and vs bbs who fold too much and don't 3bet often you can def get away with raising lots until they adjust. One reason I like limping sb is one you are getting 3:1 immediate pot odds vs a range of any two cards so its hard for the limp to be losing money even with weak hands. The other is that in general I think trying to shrink the size of pots when you are out of position is a good strategy, so this way you get to play more small pots, which I believe is a better strategy when you are out of position.
razios11 years, 11 months agoHi Lucas, Nice video! Like WM2K mentioned, it is good to have some analysis to see how ranges can affect your decisions and it really surprised me on 4c5c hand.
As the limp strategy on SB, I do agree with the points you mentioned, but I have some others considerations, would be nice if you could talk about it.
- We are playing OOP against a very wide range a small pot, but we do have a wide range as well, playing a high SPR spot and we don´t have the initiative.
- It can be very hard to extract value when we actually have a hand, instead of just raise/4bet hands.
- We can´t exploit people who fold a ton preflop or 3bet too much as bluff.
- We need to have a very wide known of board textures and oponnent tendencies to win that pot, which make us really though to play OOP.
These are some points I would like to point, I saw that limping strategy and I´m not totally convinced about it, especially on lower limits under NL200, when people still have a ton of leaks.
Good job!
WM2K11 years, 11 months agoLimping would be an adjustment against someone who is defending their bb very well and aggressively. Obv if they are folding too much preflop and just letting you steal then limping is a poor strategy. As for getting paid with our bigger hands? Well limp raising likely takes care of that. I assume that if we limp a reasonable amount that aggressive villains will attack quite a lot and we get to throw in a 3 bet.
Fwiw in the "Intelligent Poker Player" the author advocates limping anything your going to play in FLHE. Its a different game obv (you can only minraise which is pretty huge) but leads me to believe perhaps its not that crazy to think that a limping strategy is strong in the right situations in NL. Lucas Greenwood11 years, 11 months agoTo discuss limping a little more, its a new strategy for me, as I only started it the last few months. Its worth pointing out that vs players who fold too often vs a raise they tend to make similar mistakes in other spots by folding too much postflop and generally just giving up lots of flops to a cbet. Keep in mind as soon as the BB checks his range becomes dramatically weaker as he basically never has a top 30% hand.
Artis Bruveris11 years, 11 months agoNice vid. Happy to see good cash coach at Essential.
Love 45s. As said beffore A3s be much nicer to analize at turn.
Cant wait for next one.
ProPokerTools does not seem to discount Combos due to the board runout. Doesnt this change his Equity with say AQ vs. ur shovingrange?
You said you might not always shove A6s on the river but always should, mainly cause you think his value hands are AK AQ. But if we want him to fold these Hands then why shove A6s? Is it purely for balance sake and because we dont exactly know if he is calling or folding AQ AK?
Lucas Greenwood11 years, 11 months agoI think I should shove A6 OTR because villain can't really have JJ, and there are only 3 combos of sets because I block AA and 66 and there is only one combo of quads. Furthermore he's likely to not always 3bet 66 and 22 and pf (potentially never 3betting them pf 200 deep) and he's also likely to do something goofy some % with top set because he blocks a lot of my top pair. If I'm beat otr with A6 I'd probably be most worried about AJ (but again I'd suspect that oop 200bbs deep he won't 3bet all his AJ combos particularly AJo. GIven that he has 16 combos of AQ/AK + he could be merge betting AT or a8s or something I think it becomes a fairly clear shove vs most players.
Mike8711 years, 11 months agoVery nice video, I enjoy analysis like that a lot. Would also be interested to hear more about a SB limping strategy, I know Sauce uses one as well like he demonstrated in his zoom video.
For the 45cc hands. You put your weak axcc hands into your shoving range. Is this because we don't make it to the river with many other weaker axs hands?
For card removal wouldn't our axcc make the best river folds and other suited aces better for our bluffing and calling ranges.
Ya, I agree they should be hands I fold the majority of the time, when I mentioned them as bluffs, I mainly meant that those hands aren't strong enough to call so I could consider bluffing them. In reality I think bluffing Ax to fold out a big ace is probably too thin quite ambitious. Keep in mind I can call Ax if I think he's bluffing but I can't call 45 if he's bluffing so one advantage of shoving 45 is that I also win vs his bluffs.
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One thing I don't understand is on the QQ hand halfway through, why do you check on the flop? The board is so draw heavy and could have hit him along with the fact there are too many scare cards later on. Surely betting would be the best option?
He called your all in on the turn not the flop so does that change the analysis if he is folding the turn if a spade comes?
last hand:
would it be better to bluff with your Ax hands because we have card removal to his calling range? If we do that then we end of bluffing too much so where do you draw the line? Or should we just bluff with bottom of our range type hands like you did?
Michael,
I don't mind leading the flop with QQ it may be the best play but I as a default I check the flop when I'm not the aggressor pf. Its important to note that while leading may be the best play in a vacuum, I need to consider how it affects my checking range, because if I lead QQ it means I won't get to realize my equity or can get bluffed off the best hand with my marginal hands, i.e. QJs JTs AK.
Jigga,
I do think he will fold the turn if a spade comes, so that is worth pointing out that in his shoes (if he's not folding) calling flop and calling any non spade is def a better line. I quickly ran the equities and QQ vs As3s,As4s,TdTc,ThTd,44,22,as5s,as6s,as7s,as8s has 33% equity if the turn is the 9c, and 26% equity ott if it is the 3c.
I still think he should be folding flop mainly because when I have a value hand is equity is 12% if its a set and 30% vs two pair compared to 40-50% vs my combo draws which means I need to bluffing quite a bit more often. I'll also add that while I didn't put 5s3s in my range or 5s6s for each of those combos I add I need to consider adding 24s T4s and t2s. Last point I'll make is that while I would fastplay 5s3s and 5s6s some of the time its not a great play 200bbs deep because my flush outs aren't clean, where 100bbs deep I could shrug get it in.
For the 4c5c hand, I think first off its worth pointing out that you should bluff when you think your opponent is going to fold, and if I'm getting called by AQ I probably shouldn't be bluffing anything OTR. That said from a game theory standpoint if we want to be balanced my value range OTR is AJ,66,ax6x,ax2x,22 which is 36 combos. Since he needs to be good 25% of the time to call I should be bluffing about 12 combos. You should never bluff river with AQ+ and you should probably be folding ott with some of your weakest aces, so I would suggest to keep your bluffing frequency under control shove river with Ax everytime X is under a J and you turned the NFD to keep your combos down. All theory aside don't forget that poker is about making money and you should only be bluffing if you think your opponent will fold.
As for a video, I'll keep my eye out for interesting hands that pop up bvb in game and when I have a few good ones I'll try and do video on it.
The 5c4c hand was very interesting. Fwiw I like the bluff without reads that villain is a huge station OTR especially as we basically have the nut low making it the best candidate for a bluff. In the end though you are really owning villain in that spot.
+1 to hearing some thoughts about incorporating limping into a sb strategy. At the limits these vids are geared towards villains are still quite highly exploitable by raising a ton but there are a few villains I would consider limping against. I may start a thread about it as I m not totally sure how to go about choosing my ranges.
As the limp strategy on SB, I do agree with the points you mentioned, but I have some others considerations, would be nice if you could talk about it.
- We are playing OOP against a very wide range a small pot, but we do have a wide range as well, playing a high SPR spot and we don´t have the initiative.
- It can be very hard to extract value when we actually have a hand, instead of just raise/4bet hands.
- We can´t exploit people who fold a ton preflop or 3bet too much as bluff.
- We need to have a very wide known of board textures and oponnent tendencies to win that pot, which make us really though to play OOP.
These are some points I would like to point, I saw that limping strategy and I´m not totally convinced about it, especially on lower limits under NL200, when people still have a ton of leaks.
Good job!
Fwiw in the "Intelligent Poker Player" the author advocates limping anything your going to play in FLHE. Its a different game obv (you can only minraise which is pretty huge) but leads me to believe perhaps its not that crazy to think that a limping strategy is strong in the right situations in NL.
Love 45s. As said beffore A3s be much nicer to analize at turn.
Cant wait for next one.
ProPokerTools does not seem to discount Combos due to the board runout. Doesnt this change his Equity with say AQ vs. ur shovingrange?
You said you might not always shove A6s on the river but always should, mainly cause you think his value hands are AK AQ. But if we want him to fold these Hands then why shove A6s? Is it purely for balance sake and because we dont exactly know if he is calling or folding AQ AK?
Just curious is your limping strategy a spin off from Sauce's strategy?
What your hud stats the bottom line?
For the 45cc hands. You put your weak axcc hands into your shoving range. Is this because we don't make it to the river with many other weaker axs hands?
For card removal wouldn't our axcc make the best river folds and other suited aces better for our bluffing and calling ranges.
Ya, I agree they should be hands I fold the majority of the time, when I mentioned them as bluffs, I mainly meant that those hands aren't strong enough to call so I could consider bluffing them. In reality I think bluffing Ax to fold out a big ace is probably too thin quite ambitious. Keep in mind I can call Ax if I think he's bluffing but I can't call 45 if he's bluffing so one advantage of shoving 45 is that I also win vs his bluffs.
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