Great video George, could you post a link to the software? <3 the JRB line in 2nd hand.
In the hand we start with J7543:
I'm unsure of why we want to raise post 2nd draw when we make a pair of deuces tbh given we can never check behind if he breaks. You just put more $ in vs a good hand and only really benefit from a fold from him (and when he goes 3 to pat its a spot people bluff raise super often in your seat I suspect he's not going to be over folding). If you make a 9/7/4/3/2 or T/7/4/3/2 it makes a lot more sense to raise since we can actually pat behind when he draws. (which is what happened in the hand).
I assume you missed it but he actually broke after you raised and the action going into 3rd was 1/1.
I think sauce has to have had specifically 87432 after the 1st draw (like 99%) to have check raised post 1st draw. I suppose he could have played 97432 but I don't think he pats that given how smooth his draw is so theres probably a small chance he had that too.
To be fair to George's line, if I break a 9/8 then his wheel draw gains a lot of EV. And my fold rate will be higher with his dead cards than the base rate of when George holds 9/T+wheel draw (thought my break rate will be lower I think).
But surely it costs him too much the times you just call and pat and the times you bet/3b and he has to put in 3 bets to draw instead of 1. Is he not better off doing this with hands that can pat behind after you've broken so that they both gain the EV of the fold equity and the EV of you breaking? All hands gain some EV from you breaking obviously but a hand that can pat behind will gain the most.
Especially given we don't get to raise this spot THAT much. I guess I'm just thinking the deuce seems like a pretty fine card to bluff raise but it would probably want to bluff raise less than certain other cards (the ones that can pat) and if we're raising them all then surely we're just going mental here. I mean sure, the deuce is going to slightly weaken your range but it's not significantly better than a 3 (another card we could raise) and it's only 1 extra deuce. It's not like this is the 3rd or even 4th deuce we've picked up.
Mostly just brainstorming here but that was most interesting to me.
Generally I agree. It's rare that I raise still drawing (vs. a break), but I think this is one of the better spots for it.
When Ben goes 3->pat and George has seen 7722, it's really rare that Ben 3-bets him (though I don't know how often Ben defends here without a 2 in his hand - let's assume he does sometimes).
In addition to that, the blockers work in two other ways: They make it less likely that Ben has a hand he can break, and they make it more likely he has a hand he can fold.
Without seeing the 7s earlier, I'd say the play might be going slightly overboard, but with the 7s also I think it's the best play. A big part of our EV here comes from Ben being able to fold unbreakable 9x, so if your opponent doesn't ever do that, just call :)
Also, a deuce IS significantly more important than a 3 as a blocker in almost all spots. However, if Ben never defended without a 2 in his hand here, the 3 would become a much better blocker (the 2 actually becomes a blocker to his snows!).
I guess most oft the strategy in that hand is already covered now here in the commentaries. Nice that everybody helps me out :). I just missed the draw one part by Ben in the video.
And yes i use a greenscreen for the video. I hope it makes the video a little more personal and it is not really big of a problem to set it up. A piece of green felt was all i needed.
just a question about the last hand vs sauce:
would it make sense to stand pat (snow) instead of drawing 1 on the last draw and try to get him off his rough made hands on the river, since his average made hands after going from 3 to pat should be way rougher than our valuerange when we go 2-1-pat?
personally i just dont have enough experience to know if thats a viable option or if we get called like always.
therefore it would be cool to see what the troutulator says how we are doing vs something like a 87/86 (maybe even 97 after weve seen his hand at sd) with 1 draw left. unfortunately we just saw the sim vs an 86 with 2 draws left.
Yes that makes sense. I would use a draw with more blockers and less smooth draw though. SOmething like 22346. If you snow too much with good draws in that spot i think you give up equity.
@20min why do you think BB should raise him out when you stood pat in the hand. While he has a better hand/draw than the 3rd player in the pot he doesn't always stand to have a better hand than you as you stood pat. By raising isn't he risking you putting in another bet on him and him value towning himself in the hand that way? Your range is still uncapped and you could have a pat seven already. Of course you are at the bottom of your range in this spot and he would stand better to probably raise against your actual pat hand but overall are you sure that's his best strategy here?
This is a really good question. I think the added bonus that i might break a bad pat hand makes it a raise, even if he sometimes runs into having to call another bet. There are just so many more bad pat hands in my range than good ones when patting from the start.
You spoke about not always betting when you draw fewer cards than your opponents if they have an equity edge on you in the hand. I'm not sure if it's as important but wont that tip them off as to the strength of say your patted hand allowing them to play closer perfect against you on future draws? Possibly in other hands? Say in the hand I'm referring to above that the original cutoff raiser had folded. You get HU with your made 87xx3 pat hand but in an equity disadvantage against the BB. If you pat there and don't bet out doesn't he put you on exactly that sort of hand?
The last hand was very standard from sauce's point imo, you just misread the action and didn't notice he draw one in the last draw. He c/r after first draw coz he's a favorite against your 2 card draw even with all 9xxxx/Txxxx type of hands (I think) so he had T7234 or 97234 (or 87xxx sometimes) before the last draw. You raised him so he broke his weak pat hand (and a good 1 card draw), drew a T which is a valuebet if you draw one and bet it out. Called the raise, because he just didnt believe you enough to fold with such great odds.
The rest of the video is good, I like the calculations and some of the ideas (like leading multiway to force out another player, which I think is a very important factor in all limit games actually).
Wonderful vid, thank you.....makes me feel good that I have been making acceptable decisions (high standards indeed!) playing 27TD in mixed games but now I have a much better idea of how to think about it. Going to start a notebook. Very valuable because
there isn't a lot of material available and mixed games are so enjoyable
http://www.andyblackwood.com/converter.html
This was the only thing I could find for Troutulator
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Great video George, could you post a link to the software? <3 the JRB line in 2nd hand.
In the hand we start with J7543:
I'm unsure of why we want to raise post 2nd draw when we make a pair of deuces tbh given we can never check behind if he breaks. You just put more $ in vs a good hand and only really benefit from a fold from him (and when he goes 3 to pat its a spot people bluff raise super often in your seat I suspect he's not going to be over folding). If you make a 9/7/4/3/2 or T/7/4/3/2 it makes a lot more sense to raise since we can actually pat behind when he draws. (which is what happened in the hand).
I assume you missed it but he actually broke after you raised and the action going into 3rd was 1/1.
I think sauce has to have had specifically 87432 after the 1st draw (like 99%) to have check raised post 1st draw. I suppose he could have played 97432 but I don't think he pats that given how smooth his draw is so theres probably a small chance he had that too.
To be fair to George's line, if I break a 9/8 then his wheel draw gains a lot of EV. And my fold rate will be higher with his dead cards than the base rate of when George holds 9/T+wheel draw (thought my break rate will be lower I think).
But surely it costs him too much the times you just call and pat and the times you bet/3b and he has to put in 3 bets to draw instead of 1. Is he not better off doing this with hands that can pat behind after you've broken so that they both gain the EV of the fold equity and the EV of you breaking? All hands gain some EV from you breaking obviously but a hand that can pat behind will gain the most.
Especially given we don't get to raise this spot THAT much. I guess I'm just thinking the deuce seems like a pretty fine card to bluff raise but it would probably want to bluff raise less than certain other cards (the ones that can pat) and if we're raising them all then surely we're just going mental here. I mean sure, the deuce is going to slightly weaken your range but it's not significantly better than a 3 (another card we could raise) and it's only 1 extra deuce. It's not like this is the 3rd or even 4th deuce we've picked up.
Mostly just brainstorming here but that was most interesting to me.
Generally I agree. It's rare that I raise still drawing (vs. a break), but I think this is one of the better spots for it.
When Ben goes 3->pat and George has seen 7722, it's really rare that Ben 3-bets him (though I don't know how often Ben defends here without a 2 in his hand - let's assume he does sometimes).
In addition to that, the blockers work in two other ways: They make it less likely that Ben has a hand he can break, and they make it more likely he has a hand he can fold.
Without seeing the 7s earlier, I'd say the play might be going slightly overboard, but with the 7s also I think it's the best play. A big part of our EV here comes from Ben being able to fold unbreakable 9x, so if your opponent doesn't ever do that, just call :)
Also, a deuce IS significantly more important than a 3 as a blocker in almost all spots. However, if Ben never defended without a 2 in his hand here, the 3 would become a much better blocker (the 2 actually becomes a blocker to his snows!).
#blockers
Great video, by the way, George! Do you own a green screen?! I might need to invest in one.
I guess most oft the strategy in that hand is already covered now here in the commentaries. Nice that everybody helps me out :). I just missed the draw one part by Ben in the video.
And yes i use a greenscreen for the video. I hope it makes the video a little more personal and it is not really big of a problem to set it up. A piece of green felt was all i needed.
35:21 Sauce drew one after you raised him on turn, that's why he bet river
Yeah. I missed that. Makes sense now.
thx for the vid george, very interesting stuff :)
just a question about the last hand vs sauce:
would it make sense to stand pat (snow) instead of drawing 1 on the last draw and try to get him off his rough made hands on the river, since his average made hands after going from 3 to pat should be way rougher than our valuerange when we go 2-1-pat?
personally i just dont have enough experience to know if thats a viable option or if we get called like always.
therefore it would be cool to see what the troutulator says how we are doing vs something like a 87/86 (maybe even 97 after weve seen his hand at sd) with 1 draw left. unfortunately we just saw the sim vs an 86 with 2 draws left.
Yes that makes sense. I would use a draw with more blockers and less smooth draw though. SOmething like 22346. If you snow too much with good draws in that spot i think you give up equity.
@20min why do you think BB should raise him out when you stood pat in the hand. While he has a better hand/draw than the 3rd player in the pot he doesn't always stand to have a better hand than you as you stood pat. By raising isn't he risking you putting in another bet on him and him value towning himself in the hand that way? Your range is still uncapped and you could have a pat seven already. Of course you are at the bottom of your range in this spot and he would stand better to probably raise against your actual pat hand but overall are you sure that's his best strategy here?
Also, I'm curious if you would have broken your hand had he stayed pat on the 1st draw.
This is a really good question. I think the added bonus that i might break a bad pat hand makes it a raise, even if he sometimes runs into having to call another bet. There are just so many more bad pat hands in my range than good ones when patting from the start.
You spoke about not always betting when you draw fewer cards than your opponents if they have an equity edge on you in the hand. I'm not sure if it's as important but wont that tip them off as to the strength of say your patted hand allowing them to play closer perfect against you on future draws? Possibly in other hands? Say in the hand I'm referring to above that the original cutoff raiser had folded. You get HU with your made 87xx3 pat hand but in an equity disadvantage against the BB. If you pat there and don't bet out doesn't he put you on exactly that sort of hand?
That is a problem, but you can balance with a checkraise with the nuts in those spots. The situation does not come along that often.
i don't get it. You say 85% when it actually shows 58?! It happened twice so I'm not sure if I was looking at the right number..
I guess it is a problem with my english. Get confused sometimes.
The last hand was very standard from sauce's point imo, you just misread the action and didn't notice he draw one in the last draw. He c/r after first draw coz he's a favorite against your 2 card draw even with all 9xxxx/Txxxx type of hands (I think) so he had T7234 or 97234 (or 87xxx sometimes) before the last draw. You raised him so he broke his weak pat hand (and a good 1 card draw), drew a T which is a valuebet if you draw one and bet it out. Called the raise, because he just didnt believe you enough to fold with such great odds.
The rest of the video is good, I like the calculations and some of the ideas (like leading multiway to force out another player, which I think is a very important factor in all limit games actually).
Ohhh.
What is the name of the software?
Wonderful vid, thank you.....makes me feel good that I have been making acceptable decisions (high standards indeed!) playing 27TD in mixed games but now I have a much better idea of how to think about it. Going to start a notebook. Very valuable because
there isn't a lot of material available and mixed games are so enjoyable
http://www.andyblackwood.com/converter.html
This was the only thing I could find for Troutulator
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