Learning A New Game: Spin & Go (part 2)
Posted by Steve Paul
Video Player is loading.
This is a modal window.
The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported.
Resume Video
Start from Beginning
Watch Video
10
Loading 9 Comments...
Hey Paul! Thanks for the Spin and Go series. I registered for the Essential plan today and "Learning a new game' part 1 and 2 are the first two videos that I get to watch more than 2 minutes :)
I thought I'd give you some feedback from my recreational-micro-stakes-break-even point of view...
I feel that I can learn a lot from your thought process when it comes to building GTO ranges. I downloaded HoldemRessources calculator and it seems to be a very interesting tool for testing different ranges... That being said, it is not free... it is a 2 weeks trial (I believe that you say that it is free in part 1)
Having played a few hundreds of Spin and Go's, I feel that, from a strictly theoretical point of view, your video is quite valuable, but from a practical point of view, I wonder if you take in account some aspects that are specific to the Spin and go format:
At buyins of $5 or lower, the player pool is extremely bad and therefore, an exploitative strategy is probably more optimal than a GTO strategy.
For an example, when the spin gives a 2x, very VERY often, one of the 2 other players will shove all in with any 2 on the first hand.
Limping is a strategy that you did not take in account while it seems to be a powerful tool to counter the light shoves and the agro-maniacs that you will encounter a ton in this format. Some successful players at the highest limits (Courtiebee) do use it quite a bit.
I do not understand the game toy building. I get confused when you take 10 minutes to build a raise-fold-shove strategy when, from my experience, limp and calling account for a very large amount of the action, and that I can not build a "usable" range without taking theses two in account.
In the practical part of your course, you talk about balancing your ranges ("sometimes I call, sometimes I raise, etc.) but from my experience, at lower stakes, you will seldom see the same player twice, so I am not too sure about the interest of balancing instead of going for the most +EV line vs the specific player...
All in all, I loved the videos and I look forward to the next ones. I realize that this course is about "Learning a new game" and not "how to beat Spin and Go's". English is not my first language, so I hope that I make a little bit of sense!
Thanks in advance!
Glad you liked the videos and welcome to the site! I pretty much agree with your entire post, I'll make a couple of comments below.
re: Holdem resources calculator - I had some technical difficulties and so had a few takes, I know in some of those I mentioned I was using the free trial but the software wasn't free, sorry if I misspoke in the video that was released.
re: GTO vs exploitable. I 100% agree and found that to be a bit of a problem in the "practical" parts of the video. That said, if you could play GTO you would crush weak opponents (though not by as much as you could) and that will continue to serve you well as you move up in stakes. In my opinion focusing on theory/good play and then adjusting in game to obvious mistakes is the best way to learn as you move up. Once the player pool gets smaller and you're seeing the same regs a lot, putting more work into studying their games and adjusting makes more sense (although still with an eye towards not becoming too exploitable since decent regs will re-adjust.)
re: balancing. When I say I sometimes raise/sometimes call I mean I'm not sure which play is highest EV but I think it's very close so I mix the two options. If I have info to suggest that one play is significantly higher EV, then I agree that I should always make that play.
re: limping, when I first started with spins I made the assumption that a raise only strategy would not give up much EV compared to one that employs limping. Unfortunately it looks like that may not be the case since as you point out many strong players limp fairly often. I have yet to make part 3 but I'm going to have to decide whether/when to relax that assumption and start implementing a limping range.
Thanks for the well thought out reply and let me know if you have any other questions. Also, you could easily pass as English first language, your English is excellent.
Hi Steve, thanks for the series. I like to see you working through the logic in video. Two tables is fine.
I enjoy these videos! I'm curious to see how valuable HEM R is in helping you evaluate limping strategies or if you'll resort to other tools. I think if you start with a really simple toy game like you've been doing, even if the results are harder to evaluate (due to the typical issue w. HEMR of having to assign % chance we realize our equity on a x back), it will still be a useful starting point. GL!
Hi Paul! I believe that you said that parts 3, 4 etc. would come only if you feel that there is a demand for it... FWIW, I am waiting (hoping) for those like a kid who waits for midnight on the 24th of december! :-)
Parts 3 and 4 have both been made, not 100% sure when they will be released but probably in the next few weeks. Part 3 I look at play vs a button open, part 4 at preflop play hu and start to question some of my assumptions from parts 1-3. I've been enjoying making the videos so glad to hear you like them :)
Videos are great! Please keep uploading them :)
From my point of view it's great to see the whole thinking process even when some mistakes are involved.
2-tabling is the best option for the practical part imho. Observing more tables is too difficult unless you pause a ton. 1-tabling might be a bit boring.
Glad you like them! I've made two more parts which will eventually be released, and have plans to make at least 1 or two more beyond that.
Absolutely love the series so far. A US site finally got something similar to spin and gos, ACR has "Jack pots", so actually having content to learn these with is amazing. Thanks for the videos!
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.