thanks Mike, another very good video. I learned from your analysis of the hand at 11:25 what to consider when trying to maximize profit when you turn the nuts. Good job!
I was wondering how QQ is not a 4b/shove spot there, so I analyzed it a bit.
Mbk88 seems to be a reg, is at all 6 tables -> likely to be capable of recognizing a good squeeze spot.
Hero's perceived range with a 4b/shove: AK+, TT+(?)
EV if hero folds: -5$ Assuming Mbk88 3b/shoves only AK+, QQ+, every time, hero still has 40.2% equity.
40.2% of total pot (428$) = $179.8 -> -30$
If villain folds, hero wins 44$
Villain needs to fold ~57% of his 3b range in order to make the 4b/c more +ev than a fold for hero.
Villains 5b/c range (AK+, QQ+) consists of 42 combos.
Villain would need to have another ~58 3b/f combos to make the 4b/c more +ev than a fold for hero.
Imo it's a lot closer than you initially made it look, but probably still a fold. Without any specific reads on villain I don't think villain is 3b/f 58% of the time in this spot and has QQ+, AK+ often enough to make this a fold.
It should be noted, though, that when you're folding QQ here, you're pretty much folding your whole range vs a squeeze in this spot, which makes the 3b extremely profitable and hero can be exploited massively. So if/when villain starts 3b/squeezing more often, this spot becomes a clear 4b/shove.
Yeah, this looks about right. Without reads, I'm assuming I'm nowhere close to the 57% needed for a 4b/c.
I also think that a lot of people don't have AK/QQ in their squeeze/5b range. That makes the fold % required go up more. Whether they should or not is a different topic...
I agree that folding QQ is exploitable. I do it when I don't expect it's being exploited (most of the time).
I actually think flatting the 3b is best here. I'd flat w TT-QQ. 4b/c probably isn't +ev because villain is unlikely to be 3b/bluffing enough here. By flatting we're less exploitable and we're still giving villain the possibility to bluff off vs us. KK and AA I'd like to 4b/c 52$.
I've tried flatting the 3b a lot in the past, and I find that it doesn't work very well against most players. I certainly do it against some... and more than I would 4b/c against, but not a lot.
I think flatting QQ in EP vs. a UTG raise, and folding to a CO-squeezer in this multiway pot is too weak. I could understand folding hands like AQ/99/TT. But I think we have to fight back somehow (whether it be shipping, 4bet/calling, or calling with a plan) with a hand as strong as QQ. I know this is FR, but the difference between QQ and JJ/TT/AQ in this spot is quite large imo.
I guess I'm not convinced on the "But I think we have to fight back somehow (whether it be shipping, 4bet/calling, or calling with a plan) with a hand as strong as QQ."
I don't like 4bet/calling without a good read that it would be +EV here... as I expect it would be hugely -EV often.
Shipping is something that I hadn't considered, and I'll give it some more thought.
Calling with a plan sounds ideal... but what is the plan? I'm thinking to c/c once, c/f turn vs most, and c/c turn vs some, but I don't like that as a plan. It may still be better than folding though, which is something I should consider more. Just 'cause I hate calling doesn't mean it's worse than folding.
When I mean fight back - I mean QQ is a hand that we should be ready to make a stand with, and put money into the pot. I also think it should be near the bottom of our range here for doing something other than folding in this spot. I'm not saying that this is huge moneymaking spot in the slightest, but nevertheless I still think it is one vs the majority of players.
When I say calling with a plan - I mean calling and not planning to find a fold very often when we flop an overpair. So how to execute our plan? Depends on our opponent. C/C, Chk/Jam, C/R small or leading could be best, I don't know the opponent. But we should be playing this hand assuming we are best and not playing it scared...
That being said, if you know this opponent well. And he's not Sqzing/getting in over a backraise w AK/JJ, isn't sqzing stuff like AQo, A7o, or 94s. Essentially is a pretty big nit. Then I say by all means, make the big fold and feel great about it. This seems to be your perception of that player.
QQ hand is interesting. Definitely not a play I have in my portfolio (I'd always 4bet it or call). Did some CREV on it and you are correct in your analysis vs a player who isn't going crazy with his 3bets. Still I'd feel as though this is a spot where a lot of people would be squeezing very light when there are 2 callers after the UTG opener so I'd still fight back. Also you say that it could potentially be a $150 mistake if we go with our hand but I think that's to pessimistic. All regs will be 3betting AK in this spot. Probably some JJ and some QQ as well and some bluffs. To be honest I think it's probably closer to a slightly -EV to neutral spot than a huge -EV mistake.
Like someone said above folding here is extremely exploitable since we'll be folding everything but AA and KK which we might not even have in our range (since we might be 3 betting them) so with that in mind vs a reg I don't think I could feel good about a fold since I don't want to set up spots were he would take advantage of me in similar spots in the future. With all that said though I really like thinking of new lines and I know for a fact that exploitive folding is something I have to work on.
"All regs will be 3betting AK in this spot. Probably some JJ and some QQ as well and some bluffs."
This is where I disagree. I think a lot of people are flatting AK at least a good chunk of the time.
Yeah, it's exploitable to fold QQ. Very few people will be capable of doing it, and actually do it though. Now that I've said that, I should probably expect more people to try and exploit my folding range... (sigh)
on the QQ hand at 30min in. One thing to think about: if flatting QQ, and folding to a sqz is the best way to play this hand, is there a way to construct a 3betting range from this position that would create the most positive expectation for this hand while making it more difficult for opponents to create an exploitative sqzing/4betting range against you.
I don't doubt that against this player that your fold may have been best. Against any of the best regs in these games I would never make that fold (and I doubt you would either), and I would also consider that playing this hand as a flat instead of a 3bet might not be the most +EV in the first place.
Early in the video with 66 when you are talking about 3betting or calling, does who's in the blinds factor into your decision? For example, if a fish were in the blinds I would lean towards calling, and if regs in the blinds I would lean towards 3betting.
In the JJ on Qc5c5x hand, what about putting JJ into your c/c range here? I feel like a lot of players auto bet vs. missed c-bets, and I also feel like he doesn't have many Qx combos in his range. It may cause him to bet 77 type hands that he might otherwise fold to you c-bet.
What do you think? What are the merits to betting, and what are the merits to c/c?
I really like the idea of c/c with JJ. The problem that you're going to run into is that it becomes a very difficult hand to play. How many streets are you going to check/call? How do you adjust that based on your opponent, and the board runout?
IMO it requires a lot more skill and effort than betting the flop. That's not necessarily a reason to not do it, but it is something to consider, especially if the extra time you take on this hand is going to take away from other hands you're playing at the same time.
I really liked this video I thought that you breaking down our hand and best action against different portions of villains range but I think it actually needs to go a bit more in depth. I am wondering about a lot of spots where you consider/recommend/go for a check raise. It seems to be more than what is standard, which may be partially a difference between 6max and FR but idk. To put this in context of an example at ~25 minute mark on the bottom left table you flop the nut flush with AQcc and go for the check raise. When I saw this spot before you commentated on your thought process I thought easy spot for a bet. You made the great point, which I didn't consider, that there really aren't many hands in villains range that checks back flop and would have called 3 streets but I think there are elements that you left out. You didn't talk about how the villain will likely interpret your check raise, and what hands you would be c/r bluffing with (or at least what he expects you to be c/r bluffing with). In this exact spot I think that KKc will always call flop/turn and sometimes call river unimproved. I think that betting flop gets all the money in against a flopped set more often than c/r does because of your polarized c/r range where the bluff end of your range consists of Ac. Also I would assume you get more money from pair plus flush draw hands throughout the hand with a bet on the flop as opposed to c/r. So my takeaway from this hand on the flop after your thoughts and my analysis was that betting was still better than a c/r but not by as much as i had thought before hearing you explanation. What do you think? I think in this video you spotted some cool spots to c/r where alot of people would bet but went a little to far with it IMO, i think that too often you are polarizing your range with the top of your range and losing value not because of the hands in villains range but because of how villain reacts to your range. I'm also curious as to what hands you typically balance with c/r bluffs because they didn't come up too much in this video. None of this is intended as harsh criticism I am just wondering what you think of my opinions.
This is an interesting spot where everything both of us is saying about the hand, and the decisions we'd make will make a lot of sense.
You bring up some good points about hands you think betting will be better against. I feel like this would take a lot of time with something like crev to properly "figure out", and tbh, that's not my specialty. I'll keep this in mind as something to try and figure out though, which I appreciate.
Your fold with QQ is terrible if I'm reading your HUD right. MBk88 is squeezing a fish over 35 hands so he will be squeezing with a wider value range here, KQ JJ TT AQ AJs etc etc to iso the fish. And I know you don't play anymore but no one is flatting AK in MBk88 spot in todays games, with the preflop action and fish in the hand, it's not 2010 anymore
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thanks Mike, another very good video. I learned from your analysis of the hand at 11:25 what to consider when trying to maximize profit when you turn the nuts. Good job!
I was quite surprised to see you fold QQ there.
I was wondering how QQ is not a 4b/shove spot there, so I analyzed it a bit.
Mbk88 seems to be a reg, is at all 6 tables -> likely to be capable of recognizing a good squeeze spot.
Hero's perceived range with a 4b/shove: AK+, TT+(?)
EV if hero folds: -5$
Assuming Mbk88 3b/shoves only AK+, QQ+, every time, hero still has 40.2% equity.
40.2% of total pot (428$) = $179.8 -> -30$
If villain folds, hero wins 44$
Villain needs to fold ~57% of his 3b range in order to make the 4b/c more +ev than a fold for hero.
Villains 5b/c range (AK+, QQ+) consists of 42 combos.
Villain would need to have another ~58 3b/f combos to make the 4b/c more +ev than a fold for hero.
Imo it's a lot closer than you initially made it look, but probably still a fold. Without any specific reads on villain I don't think villain is 3b/f 58% of the time in this spot and has QQ+, AK+ often enough to make this a fold.
It should be noted, though, that when you're folding QQ here, you're pretty much folding your whole range vs a squeeze in this spot, which makes the 3b extremely profitable and hero can be exploited massively. So if/when villain starts 3b/squeezing more often, this spot becomes a clear 4b/shove.
Yeah, this looks about right. Without reads, I'm assuming I'm nowhere close to the 57% needed for a 4b/c.
I also think that a lot of people don't have AK/QQ in their squeeze/5b range. That makes the fold % required go up more. Whether they should or not is a different topic...
I agree that folding QQ is exploitable. I do it when I don't expect it's being exploited (most of the time).
I actually think flatting the 3b is best here. I'd flat w TT-QQ. 4b/c probably isn't +ev because villain is unlikely to be 3b/bluffing enough here. By flatting we're less exploitable and we're still giving villain the possibility to bluff off vs us. KK and AA I'd like to 4b/c 52$.
I've tried flatting the 3b a lot in the past, and I find that it doesn't work very well against most players. I certainly do it against some... and more than I would 4b/c against, but not a lot.
I think flatting QQ in EP vs. a UTG raise, and folding to a CO-squeezer in this multiway pot is too weak. I could understand folding hands like AQ/99/TT. But I think we have to fight back somehow (whether it be shipping, 4bet/calling, or calling with a plan) with a hand as strong as QQ. I know this is FR, but the difference between QQ and JJ/TT/AQ in this spot is quite large imo.
Ty for the input, and you're probably right.
I guess I'm not convinced on the "But I think we have to fight back somehow (whether it be shipping, 4bet/calling, or calling with a plan) with a hand as strong as QQ."
I don't like 4bet/calling without a good read that it would be +EV here... as I expect it would be hugely -EV often.
Shipping is something that I hadn't considered, and I'll give it some more thought.
Calling with a plan sounds ideal... but what is the plan? I'm thinking to c/c once, c/f turn vs most, and c/c turn vs some, but I don't like that as a plan. It may still be better than folding though, which is something I should consider more. Just 'cause I hate calling doesn't mean it's worse than folding.
When I mean fight back - I mean QQ is a hand that we should be ready to make a stand with, and put money into the pot. I also think it should be near the bottom of our range here for doing something other than folding in this spot. I'm not saying that this is huge moneymaking spot in the slightest, but nevertheless I still think it is one vs the majority of players.
When I say calling with a plan - I mean calling and not planning to find a fold very often when we flop an overpair. So how to execute our plan? Depends on our opponent. C/C, Chk/Jam, C/R small or leading could be best, I don't know the opponent. But we should be playing this hand assuming we are best and not playing it scared...
That being said, if you know this opponent well. And he's not Sqzing/getting in over a backraise w AK/JJ, isn't sqzing stuff like AQo, A7o, or 94s. Essentially is a pretty big nit. Then I say by all means, make the big fold and feel great about it. This seems to be your perception of that player.
Earlier I overlooked the difference in playability between QQ and JJ-TT a bit, still think we should flat QQ, where folding TT/JJ/AQ can be fine.
QQ hand is interesting. Definitely not a play I have in my portfolio (I'd always 4bet it or call). Did some CREV on it and you are correct in your analysis vs a player who isn't going crazy with his 3bets. Still I'd feel as though this is a spot where a lot of people would be squeezing very light when there are 2 callers after the UTG opener so I'd still fight back. Also you say that it could potentially be a $150 mistake if we go with our hand but I think that's to pessimistic. All regs will be 3betting AK in this spot. Probably some JJ and some QQ as well and some bluffs. To be honest I think it's probably closer to a slightly -EV to neutral spot than a huge -EV mistake.
Like someone said above folding here is extremely exploitable since we'll be folding everything but AA and KK which we might not even have in our range (since we might be 3 betting them) so with that in mind vs a reg I don't think I could feel good about a fold since I don't want to set up spots were he would take advantage of me in similar spots in the future. With all that said though I really like thinking of new lines and I know for a fact that exploitive folding is something I have to work on.
"All regs will be 3betting AK in this spot. Probably some JJ and some QQ as well and some bluffs."
This is where I disagree. I think a lot of people are flatting AK at least a good chunk of the time.
Yeah, it's exploitable to fold QQ. Very few people will be capable of doing it, and actually do it though. Now that I've said that, I should probably expect more people to try and exploit my folding range... (sigh)
Hehe wouldn't worry about that, then you can just widen your 4betting range and they will be caught with their hands in the jar.
on the QQ hand at 30min in. One thing to think about: if flatting QQ, and folding to a sqz is the best way to play this hand, is there a way to construct a 3betting range from this position that would create the most positive expectation for this hand while making it more difficult for opponents to create an exploitative sqzing/4betting range against you.
I don't doubt that against this player that your fold may have been best. Against any of the best regs in these games I would never make that fold (and I doubt you would either), and I would also consider that playing this hand as a flat instead of a 3bet might not be the most +EV in the first place.
Early in the video with 66 when you are talking about 3betting or calling, does who's in the blinds factor into your decision? For example, if a fish were in the blinds I would lean towards calling, and if regs in the blinds I would lean towards 3betting.
It "should", but it's not information I often take into account.
In the JJ on Qc5c5x hand, what about putting JJ into your c/c range here? I feel like a lot of players auto bet vs. missed c-bets, and I also feel like he doesn't have many Qx combos in his range. It may cause him to bet 77 type hands that he might otherwise fold to you c-bet.
What do you think? What are the merits to betting, and what are the merits to c/c?
I really like the idea of c/c with JJ. The problem that you're going to run into is that it becomes a very difficult hand to play. How many streets are you going to check/call? How do you adjust that based on your opponent, and the board runout?
IMO it requires a lot more skill and effort than betting the flop. That's not necessarily a reason to not do it, but it is something to consider, especially if the extra time you take on this hand is going to take away from other hands you're playing at the same time.
I really liked this video I thought that you breaking down our hand and best action against different portions of villains range but I think it actually needs to go a bit more in depth. I am wondering about a lot of spots where you consider/recommend/go for a check raise. It seems to be more than what is standard, which may be partially a difference between 6max and FR but idk. To put this in context of an example at ~25 minute mark on the bottom left table you flop the nut flush with AQcc and go for the check raise. When I saw this spot before you commentated on your thought process I thought easy spot for a bet. You made the great point, which I didn't consider, that there really aren't many hands in villains range that checks back flop and would have called 3 streets but I think there are elements that you left out. You didn't talk about how the villain will likely interpret your check raise, and what hands you would be c/r bluffing with (or at least what he expects you to be c/r bluffing with). In this exact spot I think that KKc will always call flop/turn and sometimes call river unimproved. I think that betting flop gets all the money in against a flopped set more often than c/r does because of your polarized c/r range where the bluff end of your range consists of Ac. Also I would assume you get more money from pair plus flush draw hands throughout the hand with a bet on the flop as opposed to c/r. So my takeaway from this hand on the flop after your thoughts and my analysis was that betting was still better than a c/r but not by as much as i had thought before hearing you explanation. What do you think? I think in this video you spotted some cool spots to c/r where alot of people would bet but went a little to far with it IMO, i think that too often you are polarizing your range with the top of your range and losing value not because of the hands in villains range but because of how villain reacts to your range. I'm also curious as to what hands you typically balance with c/r bluffs because they didn't come up too much in this video. None of this is intended as harsh criticism I am just wondering what you think of my opinions.
Thanks for the great content, Joe
Thanks Joe :)
This is an interesting spot where everything both of us is saying about the hand, and the decisions we'd make will make a lot of sense.
You bring up some good points about hands you think betting will be better against. I feel like this would take a lot of time with something like crev to properly "figure out", and tbh, that's not my specialty. I'll keep this in mind as something to try and figure out though, which I appreciate.
Your fold with QQ is terrible if I'm reading your HUD right. MBk88 is squeezing a fish over 35 hands so he will be squeezing with a wider value range here, KQ JJ TT AQ AJs etc etc to iso the fish. And I know you don't play anymore but no one is flatting AK in MBk88 spot in todays games, with the preflop action and fish in the hand, it's not 2010 anymore
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