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Guidelines to Calldown

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Guidelines to Calldown

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Juan Copani

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Guidelines to Calldown

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Juan Copani

POSTED Dec 09, 2014

In his debut video for Run It Once, Juan "proggrezive" Copani discusses some concepts and follows it up with real hand examples and CREV analysis.

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thejuggernaut 10 years, 4 months ago

Price per hour on how to look like a boss coaching? :) Your English is really noticeably better again. Not exactly happy to see you doing this, as you're probably the best 6max NL reg currently making videos, but congrats.

JoINrbs 10 years, 4 months ago

Great first vid, enjoyed everything you said. I'm wondering what your approach is when villains can have too many bluffs in their range, would you tend toward overcalling? Or is overcalling a very unusual adjustment which you'd only make based on a villain-specific read?

Juan Copani 10 years, 4 months ago

On the stakes that i play people usually tend to lack on bluffs on way too many runnouts, and i would think that in lower stakes is even worst. The adjustment of overcalling could be very risky if some of your assumptions were wrong. So at least i have very sepcific reads to thrust about i always tend to go for a defensive approach by just not letting him to bluff be better than check.

iamapokerbeast 10 years, 4 months ago

Nice Video man.

Who is the guy you mention at the beginning that we should watch his videos? I couldn't figure the name out!

GL

Also; as an idea for card runners, your English is not like so bad that we cant understand it, but it was giving me a bit of trouble, when we have this kind of genious making a video and his english is not top level I think we miss some value of what he could be transmiting.

Have you guys thought of just letting him do the video in his native tounge and having subtitles in English for it? I think it would be cool. Or even him making it in english with subtitles also!

Would give an added value imo! (specially the native tounge idea!) GL!

iamapokerbeast 10 years, 4 months ago

I actually think your English level is quite good, you use complicated words, and in paper you present your ideas clearly. you just need work on the pronunciation.

Anyways, It was just an idea that I thought would be cool ^^
Thanks for the answer also

will be waiting for your future videos

kknives 10 years, 4 months ago

i'm italian and i understand you even better than others, maybe because my pronunciation is similar :D

anyway i really like this video and the concepts you explain in it. Only one question on the KQ hand: do you think the c/shove river for value is too thin?(too much flushes in oppo's range even if we block some of them?)

Juan Copani 10 years, 4 months ago

Having the straight with the Kc blocker make it more close than it looks at first view. But even that, i think that xCalling is slightly better if opponent is playing a balance strategy. But you could find in practice some cases where you could go for a xRaise here (opponents overcalling your raise, opponents betting really wide for value).

sweet16 10 years, 4 months ago

Great video, I like your approach very much! May have to rewatch this again, but I think I possibly missed when referring to what boards folding too many bluffcatchers would be a big mistake? What type of run outs would you say people overbluff in general (Even though they generally dont) ?

ibey33 10 years, 4 months ago

pretty sure he meant that when you are folding hands that arent pure bluff catchers (when you beat many of his hands in value range) that you can end up making collasal mistake, like when he c/c kq broadway straight and v has flush
as compared to his tpgk hand with 109o and 7 river completes 4 straight, like he should have any value bets you really need to worry about beating. and he doesnt have many bluffs to exploit you with
(if i understood wrongly any one feel free to come in and help me understand better)
felt like it made sense to me

ibey33 10 years, 4 months ago

but yea thanks progressive, thought it was a rly good video and it actually helped me digest ben's toy gaming 1-a concepts a bit better in practice.

ibey33 10 years, 4 months ago

after todays session i was in a few spots where i basically knew players at my limit will just always have it in some spots where after watching this i was able to reason out a call, was just wondering vs fish if making exploitative folds is going to be a strategy i want to be using?

pacmang 10 years, 4 months ago

Just what I needed. Great!

In the future I'd appreciate some more hand examples. I'm fine with the video being 10-15 mins longer if it means more practical examples. thanks!

FIVEbetbLUFF 10 years, 4 months ago

great video! only question about the Tc9x hand. u say only bluffs are a4 a2 or qt, but wouldn't u say that if he does cbet a high percentage, then he can have a good amount of AJ KQ KJ KT AQ with a club to bluff?

Juan Copani 10 years, 4 months ago

In most of the spot there always are key regions of his flop cbetting range that will affect our entire approach of what we should do on later streets. If my opponent would be a high cbettor (~65%+) then i should start to worry about defending this river.

On next 2 videos i will show a few hand examples about this key regions on flop cbetting range.

cYde 10 years, 4 months ago

I am not sure if I understood both of you guys correctly but isn't it so that the producer of this video (http://www.runitonce.com/pro-training/videos/improving-on-1-a/) explained how we should defend 1-a of ALL hands that we come to the river with and you claim that it's 1-a of hands that beat a bluff? I am now confused what the correct approach of this situation is. hope you can help me with that!

Juan Copani 10 years, 4 months ago

I think it deppends on how ranges are constructed. As Steve explained perfectly in his video, you always should have in mind the concept of indifference and what are you trying to make opponent indifferent for.

Whats the value of villain checking his "bluffs" on 895cdh Kh 2c if im holding hands as [Q6/Q7/J6/J7/JT]:hh ? Seems like the value of him checking back some of his bluffs its not 0. So, if you are trying to make him indifferent between checking and bluffing those hands.. Do you really want to defend exactly 1-a of your entire range ? Because the value of him checking bluffs its not 0.

This is perfectly explain on one of the Sauce Toy Games too. He explains that if you defend the 1-a of your entire range, could be the case that you are defending your air at the river "for not beeing exploited", which has no sense.

Runlikegod 10 years, 4 months ago

dont understand the pot odds colunm in the end. if my opponent bets 1/2 pot, i get 3:1 odds. so i must be ahead 25% to call. i am totally confused now. never thought about a range that beats a bluff. just if i am ahead 1 time in 4. dont understand this concept at all. and why its 33% and 66%.

Juan Copani 10 years, 4 months ago

If opponents bets 0.5xpot, he is risking 0.5 to win the pot (1) + his bet (0.5), this would be A. So..

a = 0.5 / (1+0.5) = 0.33

We shoul defend 1-a = 1 - 0.33 = 0.66 = 66% of your range (if all your range is beating a bluff).

Thats why i recommended previously see Sean Leforts video, or even Sauce Toy Gamings.

shibulon 10 years, 4 months ago

Juan if villain bets pot on the river with a balanced range of nuts and zero ev bluffs and our range is 50% bluffcatchers and 50% air we need to call 100% of our bluffcatchers. But to my understanding you only want to call 1-a of your bluffcatchers in this spot? Which means you want to call 50% of your bluffcatchers. I must have misunderstood because that would obviously leave us folding 75% of our entire range.

jdstl 10 years, 4 months ago

shibulon,

This is the way I understand it...not sure if I'm off here. I will attempt to explain:

Say the pot is $100.

If villain checks back the river with his air, he will beat our 50% air and lose to our 50% bluffcatchers, so his EV is $50.

If villain bluffs with his air and we defend 25% of our range (half of our bluff-catchers), his EV is (.75)(100)+(.25)(-100) = $50, the same as above.

Using the strategy of defending 50% of our bluffcatchers here makes villain indifferent to checking and bluffing, since some of his checks have +EV against our air.

If we defended 50% of our entire range, or all of our bluffcatchers, as you suggested, villain's EV of checking would remain $50, but his EV of bluffing would now be (.5)(100)+(.5)(-100) = $0. This would not make villain indifferent between checking and bluffing as checking would be a dominating option.

Your suggestion seems to attempt to make villain indifferent between bluffing and open-folding, which doesn't work in real time because villain's check-backs have some EV against our air.

One concern I have with my above understanding is that my model makes the assumption that villain's potential river bluffs always beat hero's air on the river, which of course isn't true...in reality the 'air vs air' river check-checks will be won a bit by each player...anyone know how to add this into the indifference equation? Perhaps change the expectation of the check-check river scenarios where both players have 'air' to give 50% expectation to each player?

shibulon 10 years, 4 months ago

Nicely explained. Buts yes I understand that.

I should have been more precise with my question. When I said villains range is 50% zero ev bluffs I meant that they are zero ev as a check back.
But I get what your saying and it actually clarified things for me a bit. If villain only has zero ev check back bluffs then we should defend 50% of our entire range. But if villains bluffs are in any way +ev as a check back, then we should only defend 1-a of our bluffcatchers.

sippin_criss 10 years, 4 months ago

This video is one of the best I have seen anywhere. I love this format (covering one topic in depth), and your execution was perfect.
I had no issues keeping up with what you were saying, I think your English was very good.
I am very excited to see more videos from you!

Deactivated User 10 years ago

I dont know if i have understood the last 3 minutes of the video, if the opponent have some value in checking the river because he sometimes win with an Ah bluff or whatever, should we defend less than the 66%? If we call with 66% the opponent is going to have more ev in checking than betting so he has a better strategy than betting? I dont understand, can someone explain me this concept please?

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