Defending the BB in PLO (Part 2)
Posted by Janne Juutilainen
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I took this right to the tables and got stacked immediately.....so I took a step back and proceeded with more caution.....then it worked several times when normally I would have folded a low connected type hand even to a late position raise i called to see what would happen. You are so right....even when I don't have the nuts if the flop comes low and unsuited it's very unlikely that the preflop raiser hit it. A nice 1/2 pot+ raise can take it down. It looks so strong when you bet right into him/them. So it works two ways.....you see more flops by defending a little lighter and pick up more pots by donking when it's unlikely they hit the flop. Very nice! TY
In fact it worked so well that I started thinking I should balance my PF raising range with some of these low connected hands too. Next step....then when the blinds donk into me thinking I must have missed I can 3 bet them!
When the blinds do donk into you do you treat it with suspicion?
Hi So_Nitty and thanks for feedback, glad you got something right out of it!
Obviously always a bit suspicious when someone donks in to me, but sometimes ranges play in a way that its hard to do much. Players vary in this section quite a bit and many are very unbalanced with their donks actually. It is very tough task to build a solid balanced donking game. But if your player pool is not the toughest, you can prolly be very unbalanced in some of these situations and take the best out of it that ways.
Welcome to wonderful world of PLO, it seems you have to begun to actually play :)
Nice video even though I dont agree everything :)
Would be nice to see some database:
a) defending bb HU vs different positions(ranges) with bottom30% range (70%-100%)
b) defending bb vs 2 opponents with bottom30% range.
Its hard to imagine its +ev(lose less than 1bb/hand) to call with T652 3s that bb, even though our position isnt that bad there.
In some point of video u say something "even though we cant realize all equity, its same for opponents also". (Dont remember words exactly because watched few hours ago). But isnt it that if we cant realize all of our raw equity our oppponent(s) will realize more equity than raw equity. Shouldnt it always be 100%?
Thanks for feedback Jarcon!
Database stuff is interesting. But the problem is that we are all equipped with different skill set and for that reason we cannot look at someones database and say that we have now found a solution for this thing. Everyone needs to make their own judgements for them selves. Personally, have been pleased with the results that defending very widely is shoving to me atm. Sample still very limited, because not a hardcore grinder and many times games dont run when i would have time, so they may be a bit off.
T652 is very boarderline yes, but cant give any final judgements from this :)
I think for most plrs, it might be better to fold this actually as a default.
Yes, always 100%, cant go over or under in total. What i ment by this, is that realizing the raw equity off a hand should be similar problem to all players in the pot. Its a bit easier to realize your equity when IP obviously, but i think in many cases we are giving the PRF whos IP too much for free, even in spots where he doesn't have range advantage.
Jarcon 10-6-5-2 hand is very easy defend there, everyone should be making it. Not even sure how it is close
Very good content. Would love to see more videos from you that include omaha ranger based analysis.
Janne: I think what Jarcon meant is that since it's hanrd for him to believe that YOU make money by defending with the bottom part of your range (exluding unplayable hands like trips and 4ofakind) it would be nice to see YOUR database confirming that YOU are actually making money on it ei losing less than 1bb per hand.
In actuality we would also have to take under consideration the fact that if someone defends close to 100% and therefore makes "stealing" impossible, other players will be less inclined to open very wide, which automatically generates some value.
It doesn´t matter how good someone is, it matters how big the skill difference is. So for a 100plo reg it makes as much sense to defend light in a spot vs another reg as for you if you play vs a 25/50 reg of same skill level.
Would you say that statement is true?
Yes, well said ibo!
very nice video, good examples and clear explanation! the concept makes sense and can be very profitable but is dificult to master, as many others in this great game.
would I find a bit surprising is that appearently you defend close to 100% from the BB but don't have a openraise+openlimp of close to 100% from the BU (given the hands I have on you) . I would assume if playing OOP with almost any 4cards is profitable for you it should be as well from the BU?
Thanks Alien!
Defending (or not) the big blind should pretty much be the easiest preflop decisions to make , because we are closing the action and all the information is presented for us. And still its so freaking hard to master....
So button play is a much harder task, because there are still 2 plrs after us to act, and therefore alot more variables overall. Also we have 0 money invested in the pot so we have a bit less reasons to put up a fight. There are some plrs whos BB i will attack 100%, but in todays games those are very rare.. In HU games playing pretty much 100% of my hands IP either by raising or limping, and so does all the others... Button play has also been in a constant change and i think it will be for a very looooong time, game is just so difficult, and we are not all that smart afterall :)
I like the content as did I with the first part. It really makes me realize how complicated preflop is. I want to add in some points that I think are relevant.
1) I agree that we lose less in the "realization of equity" battle by leading those flops that we have range advantage on. But the vast majority of flops we will have a range disadvantage and will overall still lose that "realization of equity" war. Low coordinated flops are fairly rare.
2) The reason we lose this realization of equity battle is somewhat to do with position as you mentioned. But it has even more to do with the weakness of the hands we flop; both made and draws. That wasn't mentioned. So the weaker the hand, the less of our raw equity we get to realize which becomes progressively more an issue the wider we defend.
3) When we are considering our defending range based on villains open size and his range, looking at equity is only one indicator. It is more complicated than that. It depends where our equity resides. Meaning is most of our equity concentrated on a few boards that we really smash or is it more evenly spread across most flops. The former is easier to realize equity on and also has more in implied odds. Look at a NLHE example where a nit opens utg for 3.5x and lets say we know his range is QQ+,AKs. We are in BB with 55. Our equity is only 25% and we need 33% direct equity yet we still call. We wont realize all our equity when he cbets his AK and we don't flop a set. But most of our equity resides on flops with a 2xx and we recoup so much in implied odds that its still a call. These cases are less prevalent and less intense in PLO but still appear and make it apparent that evaluating our defending range should not be solely based on equity. I'd defend some hands with lower equity and fold some with higher.
Thanks Zachary, you always seem to make very good quality posts!
This was on my "script", but for some reason forgot to talk about it. Definately something to keep in mind.
Overall i think we are still losing the "realization of equity war" maybe a bit too often while OOP, and think we have tons of work to do with handeling the post flop lines alot better.
Thanks Janne.
I agree with the last statement and we can do a lot better than what is standard for many players. I think we basically see eye to eye except I am sceptical we can defend quite as wide as you believe. Nonetheless I agree we can improve our R and can widen our defending accordingly.
Nice video.. You talked about stack sizes in your summary at the end but it was a little unclear to me what you meant. Do you think you think you should be defending wider or tighter when playing with shallower stacks ?
wider. easier to realize raw equity. Less positional disadvantage.
Yep, and also point i wanted to make is that, its much more important to defend correctly in a very shallow game than it is in a deep game, since in a shallow game you cannot make up for a small leak on later streets since theres no money left to play...
Why do you bet only 450 to 675 on the turn @ 29:00?
Shouldn't you be very polarized in this spot?
Yes true. Just went with "standard" sizing that i use, in this spot. My bluffs are very rare in this actual spot and think this sizing works fine aswell. Potting turn and river obviously fine option.
About QQ97 hand.
1st of all u said u don't expect to bluff turn so 2 things. Would u fold to bet unimproved ? And 2nd i makes it better x/shove ott imo. And imo its big mistake to xc. 1st of all we dont have 5x so more likely he has, and many 5x would like to b/c turn but will not be able to vb river bcuz of scare cards(feq in this scenario i think he will ch most of hist unimproved 5x and bluffs). And what i said(and u in the video) i dont expect to get jam on on the river with bluff on this spr given the fuct how strong we look in this spot.
What do u think ?
Hi agrosimonek!
Yea, said that i would expect him to give up most off his bluffs on turn, so usually folding the turn unimproved. Turn is a bit tricky, and against most prolly better to shove turn and not lose action from 5x hands. But i think calling here works great for our range against good opponents, he will bet the river with majority of the hands hes going in on turn, so dont think will be losing too much value, and if we get him to spew off few bluffs even every now and then its a pretty good result for us. We have some 5x hands that we would only want to call the turn with, and i think by just calling this it keeps our turn calling range protected aswell, so rivers will play a bit harder for him. And when we shove the turn we don't have any semi bluffs/bluffs in our range(dont think we should have either)... not necessarily a problem, but good to keep in mind, as our good opponents will realize that..
On 743r, from BB 2nd to act 3 way.
Since we have a range advantage here, does that mean that we should be leading range on this flop? It seems unlikely the best play since the EV of some of our hands will be higher by having flop check through. If that's true then we probably need to take a mixed strategy with our value range?
Looks like you answered my question in the video :)
do you think we need to tighten up from the bb multiway?
Not necessarily, but some hands are a lot harder to play multiway, small pairs for example. We need to just keep in mind that the more plrs there are in the pot, the better hand you need to continue and to stack off.
Very solid video!
Just one small note:
@ 37:30 - 43:00: There is a small mistake in your calculations, because of the way Odds Oracle views ranges. If you type in 99%-100%, it is not the worst 1% of hands, but the worst 2% of hands (5414 hands). For the worst 1% you can use this syntax: "100%!99%". (There is still a couple hands mistake, it counts 2724 hands instead of 2707, but the difference is negligible, I checked it in my own program.)
So, just to make the calcs right, the results are:
Top 60% vs bottom 1%: 67.5% : 32.5%
Top 10% vs bottom 1%: 75.7% : 24.3%
Thanks Joe!
I dont get one point here. At the end of the video its said that against a 100%BB-defender you should maybe tighten up on the BTN. Why should it tighten my range here? On the button we have the positonal advantage and so we want to get as much money pre in the pot as we can. Or not? I mean. Lets say we have a potequity of 51%:49% due to positional advantage. Isnt it better to get 3,5 instead of 1 bb from BB in there pre and start make decisons on the flop.
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