Thanks for this content. It is really helpful and your analysis is always well done.
At 40:15 if we made a pat 97 after the second
draw do we ever raise to make opponent break? I always wonder about the appropriate times to raise a marginal made hand to get the opponent to break a slightly better marginal made hand.
When we do want to raise to get opponents to break, is it better to target hands that stand pat after the first draw rather than the second draw since they will likely be weaker pat hands?
If we had made a pat 87 do we just call as a freeze to keep opponent from breaking? What about a rough 86?
1, I think 97 is the worse hand to raise to get villan to break. I rather "freeze" with that hand, although it's very player dependant. But lof of players bets too agressively in turn 1:1 spot, betting oop with all of their tens, and some of them even with jack. Against that range i prefer to call and pat behind. Yes, we are an underdog against their whole pat range, but we will be a bigger underdog if we break to that.
Also in that spots (especially at higher limits) players are really sticky. They are never ever breaking better hands. Maybe some players will break a better 97. But even 87652 is doing much better by calling/patting oop. There might be some over conservative players, against them it can work. But i still wouldn't consider to raise to get a break from better hands.
I think for this we want to have a slightly weaker hand. Like Tx, or maybe even 3467-J in that spot. With that we can get villain to break Tx always and that's a huge won. But it's really hard to over do that. Most players are also over doing this (to raise to get better hand to break), and thats why nobody is folding/breaking :) It's not hard to see why.
For example if i decide to raise after 2nd draw with this 7643 either with J7643 (or T7643), and with 76432, then 50% of the time we will be bluffing (probably a little bit more, because a 2 should be more dead then a jack).
So anytime i think about making a similar type of move the most important factor for me (beside of my opponent) is blocker.
For example if i had 3467-J and previously saw 334 thats a good combo.
But if i have 3467-J and my prev blockers were T9K thats terrible combo.
Then it doesnt block my opponents stronger hands, but i block his T/9s....
I'am not sure if i understand your question. This spot was 2-2; 1-1, and now villain bets. MOST players range here is weaker compared if it was 2-2, p-1. Because at the 1st draw villain is never patting a ten. They also shouldn't pat strong 9x (like 97652, 97432, etc), but some players are. But when it goes 2-2, and 1-1, and now we face a lead it can be wider.
But as everything it's very player dependant....Some players might even bet after 2nd draw 1-1, oop unimrpoved. Some players in turn 1-1 check and see what happens with Txxxx low (i think that's usually the prefered line, but it also depends on a lot of other facts...)....
3, about this freezing: it's also just a situation that's very situation dependant. It depends on my opponent, my image, his image, recent history, etc. Usually with 86 i like to raise, just because i have a spewy image and players are still not folding/breaking too much against me. And the problem by just calling with 86 is that our raise we will be very "break heavy". That's why we want to "protect" that range/strategy by raising 86 as well. Just it can mean that villain breaks T7532 and got there...
As i said it depends on the situation a lot. For example if the pot is big, and we are at a big final table i want to win the pot right now, dont want to give my opponent a chance to break/outdrew me.
But in a small pot in cash game, for example single raised, 2-2, 1-1, and villain bets i prefer to raise at least all 86 for value to protect my "raise to get somebody to break" range
I appeciate your very thorough response. Thank you. When you said you didn't understand my question I was just speaking generally about when it is better to raise to get opponent to break, not so much about the one specific hand. I worded it bad.
Basically I always thought the earlier in a hand someone pats, the weaker their hand is so the easier it is to get them to break.
My takeaway then is that it can be easy to over do the "raise to get opponent to break" line, most people don't break anyway, we should use hands that have good discards, and we ahould use much weaker pat hands like a T or J.
1)Bb vs sb is a naked 2xxxx a defend?
And if so, vs draw 2 do we continue otf with 24xxx?
2)i saw some HSplayers complete/limp sb first in with 23/27 etc. It was a tourney though and late staged. Is that something you would see in CG as well or was that something due to ICM considerations?
1, It depends on a lot of factors. In general I think that's a fold but i saw a lot of (good) players to defend it. Personally i only defend that if the SB is loose, and opens too wide (including 3c draws).
The problem about this hand is the future bets, and your second question regarding this illustrated this. Once we defend and it goes 2-4, oop should bet 100%. And once we defend we should call again ant take 3card to 24....
Same applies after the 2nd draw...So despite we have position in average we will have the weaker hands and will put money in bad.
It's similar to LHE. Despite 94o have the right equity against SB opening range getting 4:1, future playability is bad.
I'am still defending this if,
1, SB is opening loose , opening all their 3c draws
2, big ante game
3, with no rake, if SB makes some mistakes post. (maybe even against good player without rake can be a defend live, but it's closeish)
2, openlimp SB: That's my standard too and i think a valid strategy. If BB isn't overfolding, then BB should defend a lot, including hands like 34, 35, 47, 448 etc. Therefore we don't have too much fold equity opening with a 3c draw and we will be OOP. In general i am just limping SB oop with 3c draws:
There are som exception obviously, the most common one if the BB is tighter, and he isn't defending the proper range, (and/or isnt 3betting enough). Then i start to open my 3c draws too
Not sure if i understand your question, correct me if i am wrong. Are you asking what 3c draws that i am limping right? You can play other hands as well, especially with blockers, hands like 45-44x, 46-46x probably can limp too. But as a default mostly/only limping 2L
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Thanks for this content. It is really helpful and your analysis is always well done.
At 40:15 if we made a pat 97 after the second
draw do we ever raise to make opponent break? I always wonder about the appropriate times to raise a marginal made hand to get the opponent to break a slightly better marginal made hand.
When we do want to raise to get opponents to break, is it better to target hands that stand pat after the first draw rather than the second draw since they will likely be weaker pat hands?
If we had made a pat 87 do we just call as a freeze to keep opponent from breaking? What about a rough 86?
Thanks.
1, I think 97 is the worse hand to raise to get villan to break. I rather "freeze" with that hand, although it's very player dependant. But lof of players bets too agressively in turn 1:1 spot, betting oop with all of their tens, and some of them even with jack. Against that range i prefer to call and pat behind. Yes, we are an underdog against their whole pat range, but we will be a bigger underdog if we break to that.
Also in that spots (especially at higher limits) players are really sticky. They are never ever breaking better hands. Maybe some players will break a better 97. But even 87652 is doing much better by calling/patting oop. There might be some over conservative players, against them it can work. But i still wouldn't consider to raise to get a break from better hands.
I think for this we want to have a slightly weaker hand. Like Tx, or maybe even 3467-J in that spot. With that we can get villain to break Tx always and that's a huge won. But it's really hard to over do that. Most players are also over doing this (to raise to get better hand to break), and thats why nobody is folding/breaking :) It's not hard to see why.
For example if i decide to raise after 2nd draw with this 7643 either with J7643 (or T7643), and with 76432, then 50% of the time we will be bluffing (probably a little bit more, because a 2 should be more dead then a jack).
So anytime i think about making a similar type of move the most important factor for me (beside of my opponent) is blocker.
For example if i had 3467-J and previously saw 334 thats a good combo.
But if i have 3467-J and my prev blockers were T9K thats terrible combo.
Then it doesnt block my opponents stronger hands, but i block his T/9s....
But as everything it's very player dependant....Some players might even bet after 2nd draw 1-1, oop unimrpoved. Some players in turn 1-1 check and see what happens with Txxxx low (i think that's usually the prefered line, but it also depends on a lot of other facts...)....
3, about this freezing: it's also just a situation that's very situation dependant. It depends on my opponent, my image, his image, recent history, etc. Usually with 86 i like to raise, just because i have a spewy image and players are still not folding/breaking too much against me. And the problem by just calling with 86 is that our raise we will be very "break heavy". That's why we want to "protect" that range/strategy by raising 86 as well. Just it can mean that villain breaks T7532 and got there...
As i said it depends on the situation a lot. For example if the pot is big, and we are at a big final table i want to win the pot right now, dont want to give my opponent a chance to break/outdrew me.
But in a small pot in cash game, for example single raised, 2-2, 1-1, and villain bets i prefer to raise at least all 86 for value to protect my "raise to get somebody to break" range
I appeciate your very thorough response. Thank you. When you said you didn't understand my question I was just speaking generally about when it is better to raise to get opponent to break, not so much about the one specific hand. I worded it bad.
Basically I always thought the earlier in a hand someone pats, the weaker their hand is so the easier it is to get them to break.
My takeaway then is that it can be easy to over do the "raise to get opponent to break" line, most people don't break anyway, we should use hands that have good discards, and we ahould use much weaker pat hands like a T or J.
Really liked the video! Looking forward to some more of your mixed cash game videos.
Thanks
1)Bb vs sb is a naked 2xxxx a defend?
And if so, vs draw 2 do we continue otf with 24xxx?
2)i saw some HSplayers complete/limp sb first in with 23/27 etc. It was a tourney though and late staged. Is that something you would see in CG as well or was that something due to ICM considerations?
1, It depends on a lot of factors. In general I think that's a fold but i saw a lot of (good) players to defend it. Personally i only defend that if the SB is loose, and opens too wide (including 3c draws).
The problem about this hand is the future bets, and your second question regarding this illustrated this. Once we defend and it goes 2-4, oop should bet 100%. And once we defend we should call again ant take 3card to 24....
Same applies after the 2nd draw...So despite we have position in average we will have the weaker hands and will put money in bad.
It's similar to LHE. Despite 94o have the right equity against SB opening range getting 4:1, future playability is bad.
I'am still defending this if,
1, SB is opening loose , opening all their 3c draws
2, big ante game
3, with no rake, if SB makes some mistakes post. (maybe even against good player without rake can be a defend live, but it's closeish)
2, openlimp SB: That's my standard too and i think a valid strategy. If BB isn't overfolding, then BB should defend a lot, including hands like 34, 35, 47, 448 etc. Therefore we don't have too much fold equity opening with a 3c draw and we will be OOP. In general i am just limping SB oop with 3c draws:
There are som exception obviously, the most common one if the BB is tighter, and he isn't defending the proper range, (and/or isnt 3betting enough). Then i start to open my 3c draws too
thank you very much for the detailed answer! <3 do you limp as a default apart from 2x also 83 or 73 type of hands or just the 2w/7/8?
Not sure if i understand your question, correct me if i am wrong. Are you asking what 3c draws that i am limping right? You can play other hands as well, especially with blockers, hands like 45-44x, 46-46x probably can limp too. But as a default mostly/only limping 2L
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