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Analyzing Spots with PioSolver: Inspired by a Hand vs Isildur1

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Analyzing Spots with PioSolver: Inspired by a Hand vs Isildur1

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Elías Gutierrez

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Analyzing Spots with PioSolver: Inspired by a Hand vs Isildur1

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Elías Gutierrez

POSTED Jun 15, 2018

Elias Gutierrez aka SinKarma finds himself seated next to Isildur1 in the $2,100 WCOOP 4-Max event and breaks down the thought process of one of the best in the business using PIO.

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DF_Newb 6 years, 10 months ago

Nice vid. I liked the second part of it. SB vs BB seems to get less love than Btn vs BB in pio vids. I'm not sure we can draw any concrete conclusions from the first hand. I don't play many tournaments but I disagree with some of the preflop assumptions you made. I think we can completely eliminate 22-55 from his preflop range. It also doesn't make much sense to trap with AA at this stack depth when you are continuing with 100% of your range vs his raise. The biggest issue that I have with the ranges is that I'm guessing Isildur expects you to jam much wider than this pre and therefore have much less Ax postflop.

Demondoink 6 years, 9 months ago

hey man, really enjoyed all of your videos so far but this one was very slow and difficult to watch. imo you could have just constructed the PIO ranges off screen and then just brought them up quickly and before going through the game tree. the first 15 minutes or so could just be edited out without any loss in quality of content.

I like how you decided to analyse a tournament hand, but, personally, would prefer you analysing an extra hand in the video instead of going over weights in pre-flop ranges for over 10 minutes.

SuicideSpree 6 years, 7 months ago

This video seems to me to be an object lesson in why cash-game guys struggle in MTTs. I will make some comments because I am actually very interested in preflop. Some of the range construction and thought process seemed to be from an alternate dimension, and frankly I think there's a basic non-comprehension of how many hands can or should profitably get all-in preflop with only 2 players, and an effective stack of 18bb.

Elias mentions a lot of hands as suffering vs his all-ins, that I would consider fist pump calls, and/or coolers or mandatory stack-offs. That's probably because 11% is a ridiculously small % to shove vs an SB open at this stack depth. Albeit he is protecting his weakness by calling 100% and not over-folding to this raise

3rd point, vs a nit-fish like this (and Elias is a fish at this stack depth), I think Isildur is right to have 93s in a raising range (although his sizing is very wrong if Hero never folds). 93s will benefit a lot from generating preflop folds and of course it can easily fold to all-in. It also seems absolutely insane to me, for a pro to see that his opponent has 93s in his open range and then reshove only 11% of hands. In fact, against a range that is so wide it contains 93s, it will probably be +EV to shove well in excess of 50% hands.

I would definitely have a decent open-shoving range against a player like this who is clearly very reluctant to get all-in preflop and then limp a pretty polar range.

Demondoink 6 years, 7 months ago

he may not be going all in enough pre-flop but he is definitely not over-folding to the sb open. i'm guessing Elias folds around bottom 10% of hands to this open, so the raise is pretty bad as it's not generating enough folds, doesn't play great post-flop and gets re-jammed on a lot and doesn't get to realise it's equity when this happens.

he may not be a short stack expert but he is much better post-flop than pretty much any of the mtt regs.

SuicideSpree 6 years, 7 months ago

Oh yes, I agree with the first point, as I noted Elias isn't over-folding, but it's hardly optimal what he is doing. Imagine he sees me play some hand at 6max NL 1k where I stack of 150bb pre with AJo, what will he think of my game? That's actually how sub-optimal his overall strategy is here, and I definitely won't be making such an enormous error in deep-stack poker, because MTT guys must learn deep-stack play, but the reverse isn't actually true for cash guys.

Second, I said in my comment, Isildur's sizing is wrong if he's never getting folds here, but definitely, when BB shoves only 11% of hands, open-raising hands like this seems good. Maybe he needs to go full 3x or maybe even more, but it will be very good if his opponent is so reluctant to shove.

Also, there's no denying that a high-stakes cash guy will usually be better post-flop than most MTT regs. But that's not always true. In being an MTT pro for 10 years, I have to learn to play post-flop at 150bb deep also, albeit not as well as him. But converse is not true. Some guy who crushes 25/50 never ever has to play 25bb deep NLHE, or deal with always varying and sometimes extra-short stacks.

Especially nowadays, I think MTT is much more complex, not less complex than cash. A cash guy can just comfortably input his very constant ranges into PIO and all there is not much difference between 100bb deep and 150bb or 175bb deep. But there are enormous differences between even 40bb and 60bb deep. I am almost 100% sure, even a top cash player like Elias won't be better at 40bb deep post-flop play than top tourney regulars.

MTT and cash are fundamentally very different skills, but the thing with high-stakes cash is variance is lower, and there is much more potential for predatory behaviour so only elite players can actually survive at high-stakes cash, and that's why every reg at NL 2k or 5k is superb. It doesn't mean they are better at MTT post-flop spots than the guys who are playing highroller MTTs.

Demondoink 6 years, 7 months ago

I don't think you actually watch high stakes cash games because a lot of the regs actually buy in for 40 bb's and don't always re-load. so they are playing short stacked and not always only 100bb's+. so that point is not true. and playing 40 bb's in a tournament you are usually playing against some random fish who plays once a week. if you are playing high stakes cash you are playing vs elite players and even the fish are not that bad quite often.

I agree I remember at the time watching this video and noticing how tight he was re-jamming, but the fact is that if he has a big edge post-flop it might actually increase his EV. plus, even if it didn't, he is a smart guy and could just read these comments and then work on some re-jamming ranges for a day or two and then be up to speed. where as an mtt reg can't study 100 bb poker for 2 days and become an expert at it. you can input tournament hands in to PIO too so I don't see how that point has any relevance??

let's use an example, say last night I was watching the high stakes games on Stars and Philbort aka Phil Gruissem (high stakes tournament reg) was playing 50/100. he was the fish in the game and the game was forming around him. let's say that LLinus or OTB or even Elias sits in a tournament lobby. would the game form around them?? of course not! even if they would be rustier than the average reg at pre-flop all ins etc they would out-play them post-flop and probably be more aggressive than the tournament regs in stealing etc.

even messing around playing Snowie HU earlier in an sng I noticed him doing some pretty stupid stuff pre-flop, but post-flop he was just destroying me so he won most of the games anyways. I think you over-estimate knowing some re-jamming ranges and there is actually not really any skill at knowing them, it's just pretty much looking at a chart and remembering them.

SuicideSpree 6 years, 7 months ago

Your comment is actually a little ignorant and massively disrespectful of MTT players. I have several observations in response.

1) This isn't easy. I have 10 years of experience playing MTTs and even I don't do short-stack perfectly. It's not like we are all stupid monkeys and cash game guys are geniuses with 190 IQ who can work out in two days what we've done over long periods. This guy is playing a $2k tourney and showing skill worse than many$15 regs in a vital department of the game. If playing in $2k and above won't motivate him to study this, I really doubt comments on a forum will.

2) Tournaments have guarantees. Top tourney players put up their buyins without even being sure who the field is. None of the SHR MTT guys is worried about cash guys. Best MTT players won't be scared of playing cash and will do relatively better at cash than cash guys will at MTT. Anyone who has played $2k online tourneys or above (myself included), knows perfectly well how to play deep-stack cash. You can't play big tourneys well without knowing cash well. Because big tourneys are well structured, cash guys can play tourneys and make big stacks, which they usually don't handle perfectly deeper because their game, study and skill-set isn't based on that.

3) No-one has a big edge post-flop 16bb deep. That's totally absurd. Any player who is even semi-decent will not make enough post-flop errors to give anyone even 2BB/100 edge at this stack depth, and his preflop errors are much bigger than this.

4) His post-flop expertise is at 100 BB or deeper mostly. I very much guys who specialize in cash and play very little tourneys would play better than tourney regs at shallow stack depths.

5) Studying 100 BB poker is actually much more doable than studying MTTs a genuinely high level. It requires much fewer situations to be learnt. Just on a solver-based approach, an MTT guy has to plug in way more hands because the different stack sizes drastically affect ranges and solutions. Being good at MTTs requires you to know cash on top of all the skills cash guys tend to lack.

6) Is it easy to learn short-stack to basic competence or minimize a few glaring errors by looking at Snapshove? To an extent, yes, and you would think so, but when pros playing $2k online can't or don't do this, it's just staggering to claim that this is just so easy and effortless.

7) I not only watch, I've occasionally played in high-stakes (albeit ultra-soft private games) cash, the vast majority of play and study is at 100bb or deeper.

Demondoink 6 years, 7 months ago

mate I play tournaments as well so it's not as if this is a cash vs mtt players battle or anything. I just play no limit holdem so I would say that is what my game is.

these are just observations I have made from playing both of these game types. having playing 40 odd thousand tournaments and probably 1 million+ cash game hands what I have found is that even the 'top' tournament regulars are weak in a bunch of areas. here are just a few:

1-they get too emotional/have big ego's. if someone plays back at them a lot of the time they aren't concerned with obtaining the highest win rate but at 'proving' they are the best player on the table and not scared to clash with you and play big pots.

2-they play very exploitable post-flop and generally don't alter their approach. if you were to study various top mtt regs very quickly you could figure out gaping holes in their approaches to post-flop play.

3-they open far too wide. you will quite often see top mtt regs open wider than someone playing 6 max cash, which makes zero sense given the fact that most tournaments are 9 handed.

4-they don't really seem to study that much based on random things they do. for example there was a while where everyone started to randomly donk lead 2nd pair from the bb after x calling the flop. but this wasn't done using PIO it was just done because they seen other people doing it.

I could go on but there's not much point.

the fact that you got offended just goes to show how most mtt regs have big ego's. why would my opinion offend you?? it makes no sense. I am not attacking you specifically nor am I calling you a bad player or anything. I am just saying that having played both of these formats cash is 100x tougher.

playing 150 bb's deep for a 15 minute level doesn't exactly give you sound fundaments at this stack depth. and this is also playing 9 handed where ranges should be much tighter so it's pretty simple to play TT+AK post flop. there are so many areas you would have no experience in playing. for example:

splitting your range on the turn after x raising the flop from the bb
playing 4 bet pots OOP on boards that favour IP
probing turn and getting raised
playing multi way pots at 20x spr after raising pre-flop
playing OOP bvb in a limped pot at 100 bb's eff

again I could go on but there are hundreds of different facets to cash games that you can't just say 'aw you can plug a hand in to PIO and hey presto!'

in tournaments, as you say, stacks are shallower and thus the game is more simplified. to more of a one street/ two street game. and when x raising the flop/turn means going all in. which is easy to play vs you just figure out if you have enough equity to call vs his x jamming range.

Your comment is actually a little ignorant and massively disrespectful of MTT players. I have several observations in
response.

yet you were the one posting the original comment of:

3rd point, vs a nit-fish like this (and Elias is a fish at this stack
depth)

seems extremely hypocritical to me... if you come in here calling Elias a fish don't cry about it when your fellow mtt regs get called out for being poor players.

tournament final tables are mostly just raise 3 bet shove. open jam. raise bb call, c bet fold. not exactly very mentally taxing!

but anyways, as I said I play both. i'm not saying i'm the best mtt player or anything but it's just a fact that pretty much every mtt that runs is soft. whether you agree with that or not we just gotta agree to disagree as we clearly both have differing opinions. GL to you during WCOOP if you happen to be playing it :))

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