I think understanding this will be a big step towards becoming a better poker play in all of my games. Is it completely different than trying to maintain good frequencies for betting every street? If we aim to c bet for example 65% of the time we choose our obvious value hands first and then strong draws....then perhaps back door draws or bottom pairs...so the very bottom of our 65% range are our bluffs or are they very very thin value bets?
Is this really the right frequencies? Isn't it 40% bluffs when you 2x the pot? And the right bluffingfrequencie is the same as the pot odds you give villain?
In your example this would mean 28% bluffs with a 2/3 bet?
Yes, but he said 0.4 for every value combo (0.4/1.4 = 28.6% bluffs), not 40% bluffs.
Anyway, there are 75.6 combos, 21.6 bluffs and 54 value. 21.6/75.6 = 28.6% bluffs.
You have to take into account many factors imo,however the issue of what sizing to take is essential.Furthermore u start constructing ur range from the river to determine the value/bluff ratio needed,meaning depending on the sizing u chose ur value/bluff ratio will change accordingly.If u bet the flop with a polarized range 34% of ur flop bets must be for value with a psb of 0,75 on all 3 streets.
Can someone please explain me this:
Ev of villans call= frequency of hero's bluffing * (1+2s) - s, so what that "s" on the end means? is that s amount that villan need's to call?
In practice a lot of our opponents bluffcatchers will be pairs in a lot of spots. How would you block those without having a bluffcatcher/value hand ourselves?
In your K7238r example would I be right in thinking that, if we got to the river with them this way, hands like QJ or T9 would be the best bluffing hands? I'm thinking that QJ blocks KQ and KJ which might play this way and T9 blocks pocket pairs which are potential bluffcatchers and could play this way on all streets. Does this make sense?
Assuming the same sizing is used in every hand and you win with all your bluffcatchers, then yes, calling 100% is +EV from a GTO perspective. In reality however people switch gears and adjust, and if you would start calling every single time, villain is likely to notice and start bluffing less. That's why you only want to adjust slightly, so that villain's leak in that spot remains persistent.
from the slides: tot Rewards = pot + hero bet + villan s call = 1 + 2s
shouldn t the call NOT be included in this formula? and so P(bluff) = S/(1+S)?
If I am bluffcatching, I risk the call (S) to win the pot + the bet, so 1+S; isn t it a mistake to include the call in the formula?
Example number 3 we bet 100 into 140 and villain raises to 320 S=220/340 = 0.65. Don't understand where 340 comes from? Presumed size of pot would be 140+our 100 bet+ his 320 so S would =220/560
no: when you raise 320 total, you raise additional 220 after calling 100; when you call 100, the pot is 140 pot + 100 bet + 100 call part of the raise = 340, so you risk 220 (additional raise) to win the pot = 340
it s similar when you say that you raise the pot; say there is a pot of 1, a bet of 1; your pot size raise will be 4, where you call 1 (to create a pot of 3) and raise additional 3 to win 3
Thanks for the video Vincent. But i think i found a mistake(not a big one but perhaps some of the viewers might be a bit irritated). In your video (starting at 4:04) at point 3 ) you have written the formula "Reward=pot + hero's Bet + villain's Call= 1+2s"!
Now this is only true for Pot=1!!. For the last point in 5) the Potsize doesn't matter , since EV =0. But for a better understanding for the viewers i would say 3 and 4 should be corrected : 3) Reward=Pot(1+2s)
4) EV(call)=(P(bluff)(1+2s)-s)*Pot
Its a bit nitty but i hope you understand what i mean!
It is easier to consider pot = 1 and the size bet as a fraction of the pot = 1; for instance, if pot = 3 and bet = 2, you can simplify to pot = 1 and bet = 2/3, it is easier for the formulas
No because the raise is $200 but the real raise is $150 because he paid your $50 raise and add another $150(villain re-raise - your raise, $200-$50 = $150). so the pot is = $100 (original pot) + $ 50(your raise) + $50 (the one the villain paid excluding the real raise) so the result is s = $150/$200 = 0.75
Loading 21 Comments...
I think understanding this will be a big step towards becoming a better poker play in all of my games. Is it completely different than trying to maintain good frequencies for betting every street? If we aim to c bet for example 65% of the time we choose our obvious value hands first and then strong draws....then perhaps back door draws or bottom pairs...so the very bottom of our 65% range are our bluffs or are they very very thin value bets?
Is this really the right frequencies? Isn't it 40% bluffs when you 2x the pot? And the right bluffingfrequencie is the same as the pot odds you give villain?
In your example this would mean 28% bluffs with a 2/3 bet?
Yes, but he said 0.4 for every value combo (0.4/1.4 = 28.6% bluffs), not 40% bluffs.
Anyway, there are 75.6 combos, 21.6 bluffs and 54 value. 21.6/75.6 = 28.6% bluffs.
You have to take into account many factors imo,however the issue of what sizing to take is essential.Furthermore u start constructing ur range from the river to determine the value/bluff ratio needed,meaning depending on the sizing u chose ur value/bluff ratio will change accordingly.If u bet the flop with a polarized range 34% of ur flop bets must be for value with a psb of 0,75 on all 3 streets.
Then on the turn 45% or ur bets will be value bets and 67% on the river.
Can someone please explain me this:
Ev of villans call= frequency of hero's bluffing * (1+2s) - s, so what that "s" on the end means? is that s amount that villan need's to call?
In practice a lot of our opponents bluffcatchers will be pairs in a lot of spots. How would you block those without having a bluffcatcher/value hand ourselves?
In your K7238r example would I be right in thinking that, if we got to the river with them this way, hands like QJ or T9 would be the best bluffing hands? I'm thinking that QJ blocks KQ and KJ which might play this way and T9 blocks pocket pairs which are potential bluffcatchers and could play this way on all streets. Does this make sense?
So your saying that T9 would be a bad bluffing hand right?...since it blocks potential bluff catchers TT/99.
so in the beginning, to clarify....you're saying if villain bluffs too many rivers, then calling with 100% of our bluff catchers is +EV?
Assuming the same sizing is used in every hand and you win with all your bluffcatchers, then yes, calling 100% is +EV from a GTO perspective. In reality however people switch gears and adjust, and if you would start calling every single time, villain is likely to notice and start bluffing less. That's why you only want to adjust slightly, so that villain's leak in that spot remains persistent.
Makes sense. thanks!
I do not understand your calculation on S=220/340
pot = 140, bet = 100; tot raise = 320, it means you call 100 (so tot pot = 340) and you raise additional 220, therefore you risk 220 to win 340
from the slides: tot Rewards = pot + hero bet + villan s call = 1 + 2s
shouldn t the call NOT be included in this formula? and so P(bluff) = S/(1+S)?
If I am bluffcatching, I risk the call (S) to win the pot + the bet, so 1+S; isn t it a mistake to include the call in the formula?
Example number 3 we bet 100 into 140 and villain raises to 320 S=220/340 = 0.65. Don't understand where 340 comes from? Presumed size of pot would be 140+our 100 bet+ his 320 so S would =220/560
no: when you raise 320 total, you raise additional 220 after calling 100; when you call 100, the pot is 140 pot + 100 bet + 100 call part of the raise = 340, so you risk 220 (additional raise) to win the pot = 340
it s similar when you say that you raise the pot; say there is a pot of 1, a bet of 1; your pot size raise will be 4, where you call 1 (to create a pot of 3) and raise additional 3 to win 3
Thanks for the video Vincent. But i think i found a mistake(not a big one but perhaps some of the viewers might be a bit irritated). In your video (starting at 4:04) at point 3 ) you have written the formula "Reward=pot + hero's Bet + villain's Call= 1+2s"!
Now this is only true for Pot=1!!. For the last point in 5) the Potsize doesn't matter , since EV =0. But for a better understanding for the viewers i would say 3 and 4 should be corrected : 3) Reward=Pot(1+2s)
4) EV(call)=(P(bluff)(1+2s)-s)*Pot
Its a bit nitty but i hope you understand what i mean!
It is easier to consider pot = 1 and the size bet as a fraction of the pot = 1; for instance, if pot = 3 and bet = 2, you can simplify to pot = 1 and bet = 2/3, it is easier for the formulas
At 3:28, if the pot is 100$, a bet is 50$ and S = 50/100, when the raise is 200$ for a pot of 150$, should it not be S= 200$/150$ ?
No because the raise is $200 but the real raise is $150 because he paid your $50 raise and add another $150(villain re-raise - your raise, $200-$50 = $150). so the pot is = $100 (original pot) + $ 50(your raise) + $50 (the one the villain paid excluding the real raise) so the result is s = $150/$200 = 0.75
What is S though in general ?
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.