awesome analysis! could you post what each stat number represents or the just video where you explain them? thanks
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoI'll generally tell you in the video when I think a stat is important and what it is. As far as what the actual numbers mean on my hud I don't think that's uber important. I'm sure I've broken them down in previous videos though.
For the 82o hand, given your reads, what would be the bottom of your calling range?
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoAppparently 82 ;) but in reality I think it should probably be somewhere around Q2 or Q8 in this particular situation.
James, i have a mental game question: how susceptible are you to hindsight bias?
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoI'm not really sure to be honest. Do you get the impression that I'm results oriented in my analysis? I have some live play videos coming out in the next month or so which should give you an idea of what I'm thinking as I'm actually playing hands though.
TBH in past videos it seamed like there was a fair amount of it, and ive figured out to some extent whats going to happen when you start placing a fair amount of emphasis on unlikely events. I think a prime example was the last hand where villain had 57s. When you are analyzing value combos you talk about how you think its pretty unlikely villain flats 54s preflop. You seam to place quite a bit more emphasis on villains ability to show up with 57s, which seams even more unlikely than 54s.
I enjoyed video though. When you were analyzing villains river CR when you had JT, you left out JsTs from villains range. Did you expect him to CR that OTT?
Ive also been quite interested in how you use WWSF. Its a stat I feel I don't know how to utilize. Firstly, it makes sense that there should be a correlation between villains ability to bluff and a higher WWSF, but could a higher WWSF also be quite highly correlated with a high win rate? Also say we have spewy relational player, who likes to bluff a lot with a WR of say -10bb/100, even though he bluffs a lot wouldn't we expect his WWSF be offset because he still looses a lot of pots? I feel there is something obvious im missing here.
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoWith regards to villain having J10ss I figure most of the time he will either check raise flop or turn and even if he doesn't there's only 2 combos left and I don't think it's 100% that he check raises river with that hand once the backdoor flush hits on the river. As far as WWSF being correlated with winrate, I definitely think the better players tend to have higher WWSF's but obviously there are exceptions on both sides.
Nice video, had a very similar thought process in most of the hands. The 85s- do you think this PF call is making money? Would you fold without the 60/20 guy in the pot? Like yeah odds are great but we wont hit much most of the time and they are also going to have a lot of dominating draws. Postflop I think the check/raise is kinda wierd/bad as you said-I dont think its a good spot to have a raising range. When splashy players raise here I often think they are just trying to use some kind of logic like-this must look very strong.
The AcJc hand, I would be just calling river for sure unless I think hes rly terrible. Our percieved range cant have many bluffs in it as you said and i just dont think we are getting called by 50% worse hands when we shove.
The last AJo hand- I 100% agree that his instashove makes me wanna think he just stupidly wants to rep a card he cant rly rep that well. But from a GTO perspective I think a fold is better, if we are calling AJ, we most certainly dont have a folding range on this river.
With regards to the 85 hand i think I might be better just squeezing or folding but I think sometimes I talk myself into calling there due to the price I'm getting. Obviously if I'm making plays like this postflop with those hands though it won't be profitable at all.
In the AcJc hand I think you're right that people shouldn't perceive us to have many bluffs but when you take unconventional lines people tend to make weird calls. That being said, just because raising is +ev doesn't mean we should do it. We still need raising to make more money than calling and I think the spot is interesting for that reason.
In the AJo hand I'm not really looking at the situation from a GTO perspective. You're right that if I'm calling with AJ high I'm certainly not folding a ton of hands but I'm calling in this spot for exploitative reasons.
But from a GTO perspective I think a fold is better, if we are calling AJ, we most certainly dont have a folding range on this river.
So why exactly do you think that you have to have always a folding range from a GTO perspective? I never did read in game theory books that you always need to have different strategies so I am curious where u got this from.
Well in an equilibrium strategy we would want to defend at least 53,3% of our range vs his betsizing. AJ is probably the absolute worst hand we ever have in this spot. So we def. dont need to defend this hand to be unexploitable.
im not saying that you need to have a range for everything(raise/call/fold) in every spot for any game you can imagine(u can certainly think of games where nash will say call 100% and never fold-its not hard to come up with emamples).
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoWhile I agree with you that AJ is certainly not near the top of our range I think it's possible that it's a better hand to call with than a hand like 66 if we think villain is betting a fairly polarized range on the river. The effects of the blockers (blocking KJ, AA, JJ, maybe AK sometimes) is certainly going to be worth something and a hand like 66 doesn't block any of those combos and actually works against us because it blocks gutters than villain has to bluff with. Like I said before though, I'm not trying to advocate this call as being part of a sound GTO strategy.
First hand, 85dd. you make the comment that if you bet $80 instead and he jams over your turn bet "you have to call it off" with a backdoor flush draw and a gutshot. I don't understand your logic here. If villain jammed over your turn bet of $80 we can assume he's never doing this with a hand like KQ AK, AA or any single pair hand simply because of the flop action. He bet-called into 5 people and you check raised a flop of 5 people. Your ranges are both super strong here or should be perceived to be super strong. For him to jam over your turn bet with a Kx hand would be beyond terrible and to assume he would do this with any decent frequency is very ambitious thinking on your end, is it not?
If we give him a jamming range of KK/77/44 only you have 22% equity vs that range and you need somewhere around 37-38% equity. I think your forgetting that 2 of your flush outs are counterfeited almost all the time and you go from having 12 clean outs to 10 clean outs. Even with 12 clean outs it's not a "have to call" spot.
Even if we expand his range to include Kx hands (KTo+KTs+) & AA you still only have 27% equity vs that range.
I think it's a terrible spot to call and if you think it's close I would like to understand your reasoning as to why? I see a lot of mid/high stakes pro's make comments in videos about having to call in spots where they clearly don't have the equity to call but they make it sound standard with BD flush draws and gut shot type hands. If it's "standard" I'd like to understand what I am missing in these spots because I clearly don't see the equity advantage in doing so and I've seen a few of your videos and other pro's on other sites make comments like the one you made in this hand where you make it sound like it's an easy call or if not easy very close and it's clearly not according to my math. Am I doing the math wrong, am I misapplying something somewhere? I'm genuinely interested in an explanation simply because I see it all the time and I'm thinking "OMG that would be horrible to call it off there" but I see it/hear it so often from mid-high stakes pros I can't help thinking I'm wrong in my thought process somewhere.
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoIf villain jams over an 80$ bet we need around 28% equity to call so you're right that the gutter and flush draw would be a fold. If we had 65dd it would probably be a call though.
JTo hand. I like how you've shredded a decision that at first view could seems very difficult, but when you start to analyze his possible value combos ends becoming a clear easy call. What are the worst hands that you are valuebetting that river ? Would you call anyways with something like A7 ?
When i have this type of spots, and I suspect that might be being exploited by villain. I try to take a look to my own range, probably i don´t fold TJ and any flush, but even if i suspect that he could bluffing maybe i end folding the worst part of my value range, don´t wanna be wrong and cost me a lot of money calling to light. At least in a starting dinamic. Im not sure if im doing the right thing. Same could apply to your last AJ spot, maybe i end folding AJ, and calls with a hand like 85s or 2x.
Any thought about this ?
And another.. Would you call anyways if u are a little deep with villain (i still talking about JTo hand) ? I ask this because i generally think that this kind of play that villain made are the nuts if you are close to 120bb+.. Very very effective. And you definetly wanna have some bluffs hands against good regs in this kind of spots where good villains could try to rep a lot of stuffs to make us fold our Ax hands.
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoHey, I'm probably value betting lighter than 2 pair but I doubt it makes too much sense to bet call with only top pair. That should nearish the bottom of your value betting range and we probably don't want to be bet calling with close to 100% of our value betting range unless we have a very exploitative read. I don't think stack size would affect me too much in this hand except that it makes it more likely that villain would flat a hand like AJs or AQs which gives him more value combos.
you think he should bet OTR hands like KhTh-KhQh for instance?
And i also wonder if he has a val.bet OTR w ace-high as how the hand went down, such as w AhXh...?
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoI think he almost always bets the turn with hearts. As far as value betting ace high, I've basically never seen anyone value bet that hand in a situation like this.
min 25. QQ - what bout betting OTT vs the fish an absurd small amount, such as 25$?
James Hudson11 years, 9 months agoI think that would probably be fine too. It's a situation where you're trying to figure out if it's more likely for the recreational player to bet lots of medium strength hands/ bluff or if he's more likely to call down light. Given that turn card and the fact that I had a redraw I opted to let him bet himself but I could absolutely see a case being made for making a small bet.
Loading 25 Comments...
awesome analysis! could you post what each stat number represents or the just video where you explain them? thanks
For the 82o hand, given your reads, what would be the bottom of your calling range?
James, i have a mental game question: how susceptible are you to hindsight bias?
TBH in past videos it seamed like there was a fair amount of it, and ive figured out to some extent whats going to happen when you start placing a fair amount of emphasis on unlikely events. I think a prime example was the last hand where villain had 57s. When you are analyzing value combos you talk about how you think its pretty unlikely villain flats 54s preflop. You seam to place quite a bit more emphasis on villains ability to show up with 57s, which seams even more unlikely than 54s.
I enjoyed video though. When you were analyzing villains river CR when you had JT, you left out JsTs from villains range. Did you expect him to CR that OTT?
Ive also been quite interested in how you use WWSF. Its a stat I feel I don't know how to utilize. Firstly, it makes sense that there should be a correlation between villains ability to bluff and a higher WWSF, but could a higher WWSF also be quite highly correlated with a high win rate? Also say we have spewy relational player, who likes to bluff a lot with a WR of say -10bb/100, even though he bluffs a lot wouldn't we expect his WWSF be offset because he still looses a lot of pots? I feel there is something obvious im missing here.
Really good vid. Thanks.
yup lovely tu~
Nice video, had a very similar thought process in most of the hands.
The 85s- do you think this PF call is making money? Would you fold without the 60/20 guy in the pot? Like yeah odds are great but we wont hit much most of the time and they are also going to have a lot of dominating draws. Postflop I think the check/raise is kinda wierd/bad as you said-I dont think its a good spot to have a raising range. When splashy players raise here I often think they are just trying to use some kind of logic like-this must look very strong.
The AcJc hand, I would be just calling river for sure unless I think hes rly terrible. Our percieved range cant have many bluffs in it as you said and i just dont think we are getting called by 50% worse hands when we shove.
The last AJo hand- I 100% agree that his instashove makes me wanna think he just stupidly wants to rep a card he cant rly rep that well. But from a GTO perspective I think a fold is better, if we are calling AJ, we most certainly dont have a folding range on this river.
With regards to the 85 hand i think I might be better just squeezing or folding but I think sometimes I talk myself into calling there due to the price I'm getting. Obviously if I'm making plays like this postflop with those hands though it won't be profitable at all.
In the AcJc hand I think you're right that people shouldn't perceive us to have many bluffs but when you take unconventional lines people tend to make weird calls. That being said, just because raising is +ev doesn't mean we should do it. We still need raising to make more money than calling and I think the spot is interesting for that reason.
In the AJo hand I'm not really looking at the situation from a GTO perspective. You're right that if I'm calling with AJ high I'm certainly not folding a ton of hands but I'm calling in this spot for exploitative reasons.
Glad you liked the video.
But from a GTO perspective I think a fold is better, if we are calling AJ, we most certainly dont have a folding range on this river.
So why exactly do you think that you have to have always a folding range from a GTO perspective? I never did read in game theory books that you always need to have different strategies so I am curious where u got this from.
Well in an equilibrium strategy we would want to defend at least 53,3% of our range vs his betsizing. AJ is probably the absolute worst hand we ever have in this spot. So we def. dont need to defend this hand to be unexploitable.
im not saying that you need to have a range for everything(raise/call/fold) in every spot for any game you can imagine(u can certainly think of games where nash will say call 100% and never fold-its not hard to come up with emamples).
First hand, 85dd. you make the comment that if you bet $80 instead and he jams over your turn bet "you have to call it off" with a backdoor flush draw and a gutshot. I don't understand your logic here. If villain jammed over your turn bet of $80 we can assume he's never doing this with a hand like KQ AK, AA or any single pair hand simply because of the flop action. He bet-called into 5 people and you check raised a flop of 5 people. Your ranges are both super strong here or should be perceived to be super strong. For him to jam over your turn bet with a Kx hand would be beyond terrible and to assume he would do this with any decent frequency is very ambitious thinking on your end, is it not?
If we give him a jamming range of KK/77/44 only you have 22% equity vs that range and you need somewhere around 37-38% equity. I think your forgetting that 2 of your flush outs are counterfeited almost all the time and you go from having 12 clean outs to 10 clean outs. Even with 12 clean outs it's not a "have to call" spot.
Even if we expand his range to include Kx hands (KTo+KTs+) & AA you still only have 27% equity vs that range.
I think it's a terrible spot to call and if you think it's close I would like to understand your reasoning as to why? I see a lot of mid/high stakes pro's make comments in videos about having to call in spots where they clearly don't have the equity to call but they make it sound standard with BD flush draws and gut shot type hands. If it's "standard" I'd like to understand what I am missing in these spots because I clearly don't see the equity advantage in doing so and I've seen a few of your videos and other pro's on other sites make comments like the one you made in this hand where you make it sound like it's an easy call or if not easy very close and it's clearly not according to my math. Am I doing the math wrong, am I misapplying something somewhere? I'm genuinely interested in an explanation simply because I see it all the time and I'm thinking "OMG that would be horrible to call it off there" but I see it/hear it so often from mid-high stakes pros I can't help thinking I'm wrong in my thought process somewhere.
JTo hand. I like how you've shredded a decision that at first view could seems very difficult, but when you start to analyze his possible value combos ends becoming a clear easy call. What are the worst hands that you are valuebetting that river ? Would you call anyways with something like A7 ?
When i have this type of spots, and I suspect that might be being exploited by villain. I try to take a look to my own range, probably i don´t fold TJ and any flush, but even if i suspect that he could bluffing maybe i end folding the worst part of my value range, don´t wanna be wrong and cost me a lot of money calling to light. At least in a starting dinamic. Im not sure if im doing the right thing. Same could apply to your last AJ spot, maybe i end folding AJ, and calls with a hand like 85s or 2x.
Any thought about this ?
And another.. Would you call anyways if u are a little deep with villain (i still talking about JTo hand) ? I ask this because i generally think that this kind of play that villain made are the nuts if you are close to 120bb+.. Very very effective. And you definetly wanna have some bluffs hands against good regs in this kind of spots where good villains could try to rep a lot of stuffs to make us fold our Ax hands.
Min. 17.55 - K7o:
you think he should bet OTR hands like KhTh-KhQh for instance?
And i also wonder if he has a val.bet OTR w ace-high as how the hand went down, such as w AhXh...?
thx!
min 25. QQ - what bout betting OTT vs the fish an absurd small amount, such as 25$?
hy man nice vid.. can you expain the second line of the hud? i know is cbet fold cbet .. and 4b fold4b just curious about other numbers.. gl
Hey, pretty sure that it's flop cbet/fold to flop cbet/turn cbet/ fold to turn cbet/ river cbet/ fold to river cbet then the 4 bet numbers.
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.