How Position Impacts C-Bets
Posted by Frankie Carson
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You can tell PIO what the preflop actions and sizings were before beginning to construct the postflop tree?
As for the video itself: You explained some complicated subject material in an easily digestible way. I got a lot out of this and will be looking into some more of your videos.
I'm happy to hear you did Modern! Yes and in fact that is the true key to unlocking to power of Pio. If inputs bad, outputs inevitably will be bad. So crucial to try to pinpoint as best as possible.
Frankie Carson
I totally get it. I and others have asked about this from the developer of GTO+ and he just basically passes it off as unnecessary and what happens preflop doesn't matter once the flop comes down in a GTO sim. Obviously, if both GTOWizard and PIO 3 allow all that they do preflop, that's clearly the best combo on the market. It's just pricey. $549 for PIO 3 Edge and $129/mo for GTOW Elite.
Not sure the context of their statement, but as you put it that would be a terrible interpretation.
How great do you want to be at poker? Look at it as a investment in your game with a ROI, not paying for a jacket or whatever.
If you're looking at a postflop sim, the things the solver will have considered are:
Pot size
Preflop ranges of each player
The options you give the solver for postflop bet sizes/raises
Who is in position
The solver won't have considered:
The preflop action - i.e. who raised/called, who the last aggressor was etc (it doesn't care about the action, only the ranges for each player)
What the preflop raise sizes were (it only cares about the pot size, not how the pot got to be that size)
There is no option to put these pieces of information into the solver for a postflop sim, precisely because it doesn't consider that information when running the solve.
I think this is probably what the developer was trying to tell you
Excellent visual representation of the cbet strategy.
On the higher boards especially, the way I look at it is that when we are in earlier position we have more eq and thus more range advantage so we bet smaller with a higher freq but we don't have so much of a polar advantage as oop range is stronger so we don't bet bigger. That flips when we are lp as our range is so much wider so we don't have as much range advantage but opp range is wider as well so we end up with a polar advantage and prefer lower frequency but bigger betting. That's my take. Not sure about the accuracy of it though.
Thanks!
Thanks Sound! I think that puts it nice and succinctly.
Frankie Carson https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=58354601&postcount=13920
Ok I see. I think he/she is saying once you get to the flop preflop doesn't matter from a solver lens, which is true but it assumes you got the inputs of preflop right. The latter is easy to overlook.
Thanks Frankie, good summary! Like you, I am trying to treat BTN and CO as similar spots, and MP and EP as similar spots to make studying a little more efficient. Are there any board types on which this type of grouping breaks down and the cbet strategy is sufficiently different to warrant studying both EP and MP, and both CO and BTN?
Hey matlittle, thank you! I think that's a very good practical way to look at it. When I look at aggregate stuff I find myself a lot of times just looking at say BTN and HJ to see differences. More efficient and practical. Small caveat I would say is HJ/LJ closer related vs CO/BTN since incremental difference in OR range (and ultimately BB defense) is much smaller in EP vs LP. But the difference overall is small enough that the method you outlined will be a great way to study it.
Great point! Hadn't really considered that but you are completely right. HJ/LJ almost identical spots, but a decent different between CO/BTN
wonderful video frankie thanks my guy
Thanks True!
Great video, thanks.
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