Raising C-Bets in 3-Bet Pots
Posted by Frankie Carson
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Thanks for covering this. In cash I can't remember the last time I raised a cbet in a 3bet pot. In tourneys I do it from time to time but only in lower spr spots and mostly it's jam spots.
I'm not sure I even raise cbets in srp much to be honest.
In srp I float a lot and look to use texture shifting turn and rivers to try and take the pot. Is it a huge ev loss to float way more often than employ a flop raise in an srp?
30:30 I want to be clear about why we favor having hearts. Is that to unblock opponents draws making his range have less value hands and will then fold more? Or we unblock his back door range which will fold to our raise?
Thanks Frankie!
Hey Sound, of course.
Are you talking in SRP where your calling IP? Like say BTNvCO SRP?
Yes it has to do with unblocking folding range which is weak BDFD stuff.
Great video Frankie, a good summary of raising combined with some solid advice on how to simplify the raising strategy in these spots. I looked a while back at this kinda spot, but the GTOWizard aggregate reports aren't entirely useful given that they split cbet sizes which artificially increases the raise frequency for the reasons you stated in the video, so I didn't spend much time on it. One other important consideration though is that regs tend to overfold to the flop raise especially if they use a block cbet sizing, so that gives us an added incentive to spend time learning about the boards where its ok to raise.
Thanks matlittle!
Yes that’s what I was mentioning in video is theoretically it’s a funny spot where were probably not suppose to raise much at all, but the way a human would actually play vs raise (pool and player dependent) offsets this to an extent.
I'm curious as to why we don't see much raising on the monotone boards. It seems like in general our main candidates for raising the flop are value hands that are vulnerable due to the board texture and want to raise to get protection/value before the board changes.
I would have thought that on many monotone board there would have been hands that fell into that category.
My guess is that on monotone boards raising doesn't get much protection, as OOP has a bunch of very high equity draws that can call/raise vs the flop raise, so raising doesn't achieve protection?
It’s a really good point you bring up. It has everything to do with range construction of the cbet from OP. Given both players have a large’ish chunk of nuts (flushes/sets) and high EQr hands combined with not having position means OP will be mixing (and likely lower freq bet) for small sizing. So you can’t just cbet hands like air with no FD as often and your value range is strong. In other words, you don’t typically want to raise into a range that is constructed with high equity bluffs (overs+ BDFD) and strong value.
Yeh that makes a lot of sense, thanks! I hadn't factored in how equity driven the bluffing region of the cbetting range is on these monotone boards. That really limits our ability to get protection on these boards.
If nearly 40% of runouts bring a 4-flush and significantly change the board texture, is that also a reason to not raise the flop? I.e. we don't want to raise hands like 2 pair, or low flushes and then face our hand being devalued by the turn or river.
Another good point. Yes and I would say it's even more pronounced in pool because solver will still be finding some non-FD random bluffs that most people won't find thus strengthening the cbet range further. Like like KhJh on Qxx spades board.
Frankie,
Really nice video. Lots of good information.
Thanks.
Thanks 777's!
32min The only part I disagree with is "knowing how to react." I don't think we need to know because the solver is so insane with some of the bluffs. When OOP cbets 75% on 863r and we click it back, I don't think it's realistic for them to shove hands like AK, ATs, QTs, JTs etc. Solver is 3 betting these hands because our calling range is going to be a lot of QQ-TT hands. 3 betting to get people to fold an over pair seems insane.
I do think vs B75 people are going to drastically overfold though. We can see solver is floating A lot of AK/AQ KQs-KTs QJs etc. Where most people are only continuing AK or some front door draw maybe some AQs. I do think they will over cbet and over fold to a raise as well though. I'm pretty sure a lot of people are just folding AK/KQs to a flop raise. When they cbet 75% they are repping a strong range, so when they get raised they expect you to have an over pair.
But I don't think we need to know how to react because solver is calling off AQs KQs vs a flop cbet B75 / IP raise 2x / OOP shoves like 2.5x and solver is calling any pair and some KQs+. I think it would be a punt to replicate the solver response facing a 3bet + cbet + 3bet all in here. Just run into AA-JJ all day here.
Traps are looking good bro! Staying fit!
Agree exploitivley in certain pools. I would at 500NL-1000NL, you will see these 3bets. But agree to have caution because you could easily be playing a player who wouldn’t essentially never have a unnatural 3bet bluff.
LMAO!!!
Frankie,
Yeah, srp where I am the caller. I just don't find alot of raises.
Ah I gotcha. I wouldn't say it's a huge EV loss in this scenario, but if your playing in a weaker pool or a weaker player I would highly suggest using one. Common mistake is OP cbets to high against a consolidated range without position. OP should be checking these spots the majority of the time. I think it's due to an old school mentality that "I was original raiser" so it's "my pot to lead". The counter would be to increase raise freq as OP will generally struggle to defend. You can float wider too, but understand at some point you must AFq to capitalize on your opponents mistake.
Maybe it would be easier to incorporate raises on low/mid connecting boards at first since boards are very good for IP (OP should rarely be cbetting these). Then you can branch out from there in time.
BEST
Hey Frankie wicked video my guy thank you
Think a decent raising candidates obviously 2 pair +
But in terms bluffs, I think combo draws are decent, but it gets complicated when we miss on later streets lol
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