Multiway Pots: Putting Heuristics to Practice
Posted by Frankie Carson
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32:30 very common live cash spot where IP bets 2/3 flop and OOP PFR freezes up. AdKx on J52dd board. Where vs 1/3 you have an easy continue mixing in some Xr, but just freeze up vs aggression in a under studied sizing scheme.
I view this spot similar to larger BTN RFI sizes. where the blinds end up 3 betting less often. Where this hand villain using a 2/3 size makes OOP XR less often.
I know you are not for the larger sizing scheme but it does tend to make the OOP player play more honest. Doesn't give IP the best prices on his bluffs but the EQR goes way up.
I think the biggest issue multiway is you are representing a small subset of value hands when you go large. Naturally you will generate more folds, but 2 big issues are 1) good regs will pick up on this and exploit with a wider x/r range, 2) it’s unnecessarily costing your bluffs more then they need. On 2) point, the pressure of sharing MDF among players means a small bet is very effective at generating folds.
41min on J62hh-8x board Going small-small on the turn 3 way is very interesting. Makes me feel like live cash recreational have been playing this spot correctly all along lol. At least with their sizing scheme. They will still polarize a bit too much with their AJ+ hands but they use a lot of 40% bet sizes with their KJ QJ TT type hands.
I would note when I was drilling earlier as PFR OOP SRP HJ vs BTN. After mostly range checking the flop there are still a lot of small turn bets being used as well. In a X-33 line. A spot that I would think would be more polarizing but allows OOP to kind of do whatever they want to do.
From a button clicking perspective yes I guess they have! Haha.
That would be the crushing nature of being OP vs a condensed range. It’s a tough life.
57min on TTQ-8-4 board you mentioned AK is a nice bluff blocking some AQ KQ type hands and making 99 JJ kind of indifferent. Doesn't betting AK on the river here after 3 betting and checking back twice, look a lot like AK? Feels like players just put you on AK here a lot and it becomes a harder spot to bluff unless you use a really large PSB, which you might do with QQ or TT type of hand.
Previous hands on the turn there was a lot of small betting going on. On this river what bet size would you use?
I think it’s reasonable for us to have some Qx combos on TTx board given the prevalence of Tx in MP range. But to your point we can have a lot of these combos and RNG and/or suit selection would be appropriate. AK also prob has very small EQ in this point on river.
I think at this point given the cap nature of Vs ranges, at least 1/2 PSB would be appropriate. Maybe 2/3. Much more wouldn't make a lot of sense. We are basically trying to get value from KQ/QJ region from pp's and hero A high calls.
3:00 66 seems really simple but some awesome ideas. one thing I do see here that you didn't mention our 66 takes away every 65s I get not wanting to bluff recs but I'm here before showdown (and a spazzy NL player) wanting to jam river.
11:29 love the 97. People know all about how we range bet AK7 BTNvBB but they miss when we need to drill 6532x BBvHJ. Awesome hand
24:00 love the QQ on QT8. Once again people know theory on common boards 3 straights are one that people mess up all the time. Love the discussion of AK/AQ (imo the more relevant hands) and how QQ doesn't really matter. Spot on. Also like the talk of multiway pots going from erring on the side of aggression to erring on the side of caution. There's a good video right now out talking about how MDF might actually stand for Maximum Defense Frequency, and this idea is illustrated well here.
What are your ideas about how to handle KK/AA in these spots?
Not a great spot with AA/KK with MP behind. I'm flatting and revaluating turn.
Hello Frankie, thanks for the follow up on multi-way pots, these sims are always very eye opening and in no way resemble what I see in-game when playing multiway pots. You mentioned briefly that in a 3way pot BB/CO/BTN the CO player checks very often. I am guessing that the CO's cbet strategy is somewhat similar to a CO/BTN 2-way SRP, albeit with a reduced cbet frequency due to the added player?
Similarly, the BB checked at a huge frequency on the turn. I am assuming this should be the case on most boards due to the BB having the weakest preflop range and usually facing a stronger, mostly still uncapped range? Are there any board types you know of where the BB can be more aggressive? Is the block sizing the most common sizing for BB turn probe, even on boards that play polar?
Hey matlittle! Been a while. Yes exactly. I feel it's always a good starting point for cbetting as what would I do HU? Then make adjustments as you add more players.
Yes on the second, but not always the case as low/med boards connect very well with BB. You will actually see flop leading sometimes on these boards. So despite likely still playing uncapped range(s) and having a likely equity disadvantage, by eliminating lots of your broadway (heavy incentive to develop a linear 3bet preflop) and including low/mid offsuite (think 45o, 75o, etc), BB connects in a way other players don't in multiway pots on low/med boards.
Yes! In the theory world at least because of the uncapped nature of OR and depending on turn card other players gain some nuttish hands as well capping ability to apply large bets. However, in practice I would expect many players to not pure check nuts (say as OR from CO, BTN/BB call), so you could argue maybe b50/b75 is appropriate. Of course this is super general statement as different board textures will alter sizing choices.
FYI the EV numbers seem to add up to 0 in all the sims, so the EV at each node is the overall EV for the entire hand, hence why some players had -EV numbers by them at certain nodes: they had already invested money into the pot on earlier streets and now caught an unfavourable runout for example.
Thank for looking into that. But the confusing part here is at the current point in time, the overall EV of a range can't be negative as every range has some % of equity and some % of EQr. They must be including prior nodes as you sometimes see certain software do this preflop where they include the bet you already made. So more of a semantics thing I guess.
Yeh its a pretty unnatural way to look at EV on each street, way more natural to just consider your EV from that decision point, but for some reason this software has decided to subtract what you invested on previous streets from your EV
At 48.26 you faced an MP 3x open and a BTN flat.
The GTOWizard ranges (NL500) for a MP 2x open and BTN flat show the BB pure folding A5o, so I'm curious as to how your ranges can be so different? Are they monker ranges, and are they for a raise size less than 3bb?
So this hand was a while ago, but I'm assuming they were both fun players and I was in a fun mode :)
11:36 how did you see what they all had?
Ignition/Bovada allows you to see all hands after 24 hrs
Any chance for a part 2? Multiway spots are some of the most complex and fun parts of the game.
26:10 on the turn against some of the more aggressive people I play against if you check on a brick turn they will jam a ton of their range.
This is part 2 Sound! haha. I know what you mean. I certainly will.
From a net/net perspective it probably doesn't matter what we do on turn, but I do think their could be some paired combo draws and potentially some hands like the case QJ/AQ (low freq) and maybe even some FD that may decide to check back.
Oh haha. I watch so many videos I lose track.
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