Well done first video! The graphs were interesting as was the loss aversion aspect of our behavior. I know this is something that I have worked to overcome as best I can but still deal with it. The entire lesson on attacking capped ranges was helpful.
Would love to see more of these broader concepts in future videos.
I think lots of recreational players/weak regs will not pick a single bet size in each scenario and value bet and bluff accordingly. Instead they bet value hands according to the strength of that exact hand. Whilst I think that's not a terrible approach on the river, I think on earlier streets it is pretty exploitable. For example these types of player tend to probe the turn way too often and with a far too merged range. With a value hand they are way more likely to bet big, and with a middling pair that they want to bet "for protection" (because they put you on A high when you check back) they will bet half pot or less.
Hey Frankie. I really enjoyed the video. I really liked the visual ways you explained how the population is addig bluffs to the different sizing. Can we exploite the bigger size by folding more becuase they do not have engouh bluffs? And also vs regulars we should be adding more bluffs to our larger sizes?
Thanks Soup I appreciate it! So it’s not necessarily mutually exclusive meaning both sizing’s can theoretically be overbluffed. I would also be cautious overfolding to recs in general. It just that the ½ pot sizing has much stronger evidence that it is overbluffed.
At a simplistic view of this....if I'm just looking to get bluffraised with a hand, should I just bet 1/2 pot more often against non-recreationals?
In your video (and in some other videos as well), it seems like betting 1/2 pot is mostly seen as a nonsensical sizing - so an exploit seems to be that betting that way against thinking players when you have a value hand could be beneficial.
Glad you enjoyed it Hawkish! So I'd be cautious employing this counter against regs. First off, there's no certainty that a reg will exploit this sizing and if that is the case you lose since 1/2 PSB is likely a suboptimal sizing.
Second point is I would imagine most regs would pick up in short order that your a reg who is choosing some sort of bait strategy and would adjust their play accordingly. And you would be very vulnerable since if your baiting that means your including mostly value in the 1/2 PSB sizing leaving other parts of the tree overstuffed with weak value and air.
It's a interesting thought and by all means give it a try in your pool. I just think failure rate is much higher then the success rate.
Hey Frankie, love this video! Was this DB work done on hands from a site like Iggy w/ revealed hole cards? I'm assuming so if you're able to determine bluff percentages but if not I'm curious how you go about interpreting your data when you reach showdown.
Also, the fact that there are too many 1/2 pot bluffs means other lines got stronger. For instance, maybe a lot of those extra 1/2 pot bluffs should have been checks; if so, their checking range got a little stronger, though since it's a wide range losing a few combos won't change much. Converselyt, maybe the extra 1/2 pot bluffs should have been overbets; in this case we are removing a few bluff combos from a narrow polar range, and this will drastically change how we should respond. Have you looked at all into where these extra 1/2 pot bluffs are coming from? I'd imagine it's a bit of each?
It’s hard to say exactly if they are overbluffing the 1/2 PSB sizing that it means the polar sizing is underbluffed. I think it would be fair to say the larger sizing in these spots is more balanced.
A few questions to boot - sorry if you covered this already ...
What room are these hands played in? If it's not on say ACR or IGN what are your thoughts on the pool you're playing versus those two very different player pools - which are the pools that I am playing here in mid - amerrruhhkaaa ?
Also - I have been considering PIO - have you checked out GTO Wiz - if so what are your thoughts? I think that we can't node lock in GTO wiz versus the plethora of options in PIO make it probablby better - but I don't have PIO - I use GTO because I am a donk and don't want to put in the time towards leartning PIO - but maybe - probably in 2023 already!!! need to do that ... especially since GTO WIZ is soooooo expensive! :(
Lastly - the ole 1/2 harry potter... listen that's the option I got on my phone when I am playing. On said websites above - I can not change the options like you can with PS. So when I am playing on my phone - even on the cpu - I have like 4-6 tables up and I just don't have time to alter this bet that bet here... my sizings are otf - 1/2 and then on later streets it's either 1/2 or 3/4 or even psb or shoving depending on what I have blockers etc and who I am playing or what pool I am playing. I just don't have the liberty or time - to mix up these various sizes for the plethora of plays - I am just not that smart. I just wanna play poker man! (fwiw I think it was Max that said in one of his vids that if you can't waste time to alter the bets then eff it - just use 1/2 pot all the time as long as your "betting range" is balanced.)
Hey jsimon thanks! Mostly ACR, but I play on the anonymous sites too and exploit is prevalent there as well. I would imagine it’s prevalent in most pools.
I have both and I think both have their place. In terms of choosing, if time is a factor I would go with Wizard given the ease of use. If computation power is a factor, well Wizard. In terms of cost, hard to beat a one time fee for lifetime access. And yes node locking is massive difference between the two.
So first off, 1/2 PSB sizing comes up in GTO for sure. Not a terrible sizing in many spots. Point of vid is it’s used incorrectly in pool. If you want to use 1/2 PSB for various spots that typically call for b33 to b75 type sizing, yea go for it. As long as you balance correctly you won’t be losing much EV. I would advise against it though in spots where you need to be polarizing some sort of overbet sizing. Hope this helps.
Thank you! I would love to see some live play. Are these blitz or reg tables? My playing times are limited. Are you exploiting in the late hours of the night. How do you do on rakeback? Do you think that off sets the "fish" tank of ignition?
You got it. Reg tables mostly. It's a tough question to answer really. I would just suggest putting decent volume into both to make a informed decision.
can you give general recommendations where 1/2 pot is good? So that I am more aware of the situations where it does make sense vs the ones where it doesnt (like the AQ77 example in the video).
If I xraise river on the Bet-X-Bet line and get called by Top Pair weak kicker. What is my takeaway/adjustment (assuming a reg)? I see people taking 1/3 betsize w TPWK a lot on the rivers. Seems similar thinking on their part (get value, don't lose too much vs better hands).
Sure. 1/2 PSB is used a lot in various cbet nodes (IP SRP, OP/IP 3bet pots, etc). It also comes up in later streets sometimes when some sort of card that fills both players top part of value ranges up (flush/straight/etc). This tends to lessen the nut advantage of the polarizer and cause bet sizings to decrease.
Great intro video and I am going to try and catch up on the rest of your videos! Would you suggest thinner value raises against half pot sizing in these situations? Would you raise a hand like KJ on the KT3 44 board as an example? Or should our raises just be more polarized because villain is very condensed with value. Thanks!
Good question. Yes I would. They're range is has lots of merge that we can extract value from. And yes on the KJ. Though that would be the bottom of the value range in that spot vs that sizing.
Hey Frankie Carson thank you for the great video! Finally got around to watching your content. This is something I see and face in literally every single 50nl session so I really appreciate you covering this topic. Lol something I’ve noticed, if I’m check raising, depending on the board, and the sizing, some of the time opponent will fold, or they will call and hold onto some draws or 2nd pair type boards. At times, with their value hands, facing the check raise they’ll just bomb the flop anyway and go all in. Lol great topic! Thank you
Loading 29 Comments...
Well done first video! The graphs were interesting as was the loss aversion aspect of our behavior. I know this is something that I have worked to overcome as best I can but still deal with it. The entire lesson on attacking capped ranges was helpful.
Would love to see more of these broader concepts in future videos.
Thanks SS, glad it was helpful!
Welcome Frankie! Very interesting video.
Thanks Trinity!
I think lots of recreational players/weak regs will not pick a single bet size in each scenario and value bet and bluff accordingly. Instead they bet value hands according to the strength of that exact hand. Whilst I think that's not a terrible approach on the river, I think on earlier streets it is pretty exploitable. For example these types of player tend to probe the turn way too often and with a far too merged range. With a value hand they are way more likely to bet big, and with a middling pair that they want to bet "for protection" (because they put you on A high when you check back) they will bet half pot or less.
Hey great job on the debut vids - love to study the explo vs the pool. Please keep it up and welcome!
Thanks mx!
Hey Frankie. I really enjoyed the video. I really liked the visual ways you explained how the population is addig bluffs to the different sizing. Can we exploite the bigger size by folding more becuase they do not have engouh bluffs? And also vs regulars we should be adding more bluffs to our larger sizes?
Glad to have you on the roster!
Thanks Soup I appreciate it! So it’s not necessarily mutually exclusive meaning both sizing’s can theoretically be overbluffed. I would also be cautious overfolding to recs in general. It just that the ½ pot sizing has much stronger evidence that it is overbluffed.
At a simplistic view of this....if I'm just looking to get bluffraised with a hand, should I just bet 1/2 pot more often against non-recreationals?
In your video (and in some other videos as well), it seems like betting 1/2 pot is mostly seen as a nonsensical sizing - so an exploit seems to be that betting that way against thinking players when you have a value hand could be beneficial.
Really enjoyed the video. Looking forward to #2
Glad you enjoyed it Hawkish! So I'd be cautious employing this counter against regs. First off, there's no certainty that a reg will exploit this sizing and if that is the case you lose since 1/2 PSB is likely a suboptimal sizing.
Second point is I would imagine most regs would pick up in short order that your a reg who is choosing some sort of bait strategy and would adjust their play accordingly. And you would be very vulnerable since if your baiting that means your including mostly value in the 1/2 PSB sizing leaving other parts of the tree overstuffed with weak value and air.
It's a interesting thought and by all means give it a try in your pool. I just think failure rate is much higher then the success rate.
Hey Frankie, love this video! Was this DB work done on hands from a site like Iggy w/ revealed hole cards? I'm assuming so if you're able to determine bluff percentages but if not I'm curious how you go about interpreting your data when you reach showdown.
Also, the fact that there are too many 1/2 pot bluffs means other lines got stronger. For instance, maybe a lot of those extra 1/2 pot bluffs should have been checks; if so, their checking range got a little stronger, though since it's a wide range losing a few combos won't change much. Converselyt, maybe the extra 1/2 pot bluffs should have been overbets; in this case we are removing a few bluff combos from a narrow polar range, and this will drastically change how we should respond. Have you looked at all into where these extra 1/2 pot bluffs are coming from? I'd imagine it's a bit of each?
Thanks Ben glad you liked it! Mostly ACR.
It’s hard to say exactly if they are overbluffing the 1/2 PSB sizing that it means the polar sizing is underbluffed. I think it would be fair to say the larger sizing in these spots is more balanced.
i really like this video.thank you for sharing this.when is come another video of you?
Thanks Dan! How about today!
Hey Frankie - welcome my friend!
A few questions to boot - sorry if you covered this already ...
What room are these hands played in? If it's not on say ACR or IGN what are your thoughts on the pool you're playing versus those two very different player pools - which are the pools that I am playing here in mid - amerrruhhkaaa ?
Also - I have been considering PIO - have you checked out GTO Wiz - if so what are your thoughts? I think that we can't node lock in GTO wiz versus the plethora of options in PIO make it probablby better - but I don't have PIO - I use GTO because I am a donk and don't want to put in the time towards leartning PIO - but maybe - probably in 2023 already!!! need to do that ... especially since GTO WIZ is soooooo expensive! :(
Lastly - the ole 1/2 harry potter... listen that's the option I got on my phone when I am playing. On said websites above - I can not change the options like you can with PS. So when I am playing on my phone - even on the cpu - I have like 4-6 tables up and I just don't have time to alter this bet that bet here... my sizings are otf - 1/2 and then on later streets it's either 1/2 or 3/4 or even psb or shoving depending on what I have blockers etc and who I am playing or what pool I am playing. I just don't have the liberty or time - to mix up these various sizes for the plethora of plays - I am just not that smart. I just wanna play poker man! (fwiw I think it was Max that said in one of his vids that if you can't waste time to alter the bets then eff it - just use 1/2 pot all the time as long as your "betting range" is balanced.)
thanks for your time brother.
Hey jsimon thanks! Mostly ACR, but I play on the anonymous sites too and exploit is prevalent there as well. I would imagine it’s prevalent in most pools.
I have both and I think both have their place. In terms of choosing, if time is a factor I would go with Wizard given the ease of use. If computation power is a factor, well Wizard. In terms of cost, hard to beat a one time fee for lifetime access. And yes node locking is massive difference between the two.
So first off, 1/2 PSB sizing comes up in GTO for sure. Not a terrible sizing in many spots. Point of vid is it’s used incorrectly in pool. If you want to use 1/2 PSB for various spots that typically call for b33 to b75 type sizing, yea go for it. As long as you balance correctly you won’t be losing much EV. I would advise against it though in spots where you need to be polarizing some sort of overbet sizing. Hope this helps.
Thank you! I would love to see some live play. Are these blitz or reg tables? My playing times are limited. Are you exploiting in the late hours of the night. How do you do on rakeback? Do you think that off sets the "fish" tank of ignition?
You got it. Reg tables mostly. It's a tough question to answer really. I would just suggest putting decent volume into both to make a informed decision.
thx for sharing! I like that you explain thoery first then explain it in practice.
moreover, I have two questions
1) I wonder which software did you use to analyse these data?
2) what's your basis to distinguishing rec and reg?
Hi. Hand2note.
Frankie Carson
can you give general recommendations where 1/2 pot is good? So that I am more aware of the situations where it does make sense vs the ones where it doesnt (like the AQ77 example in the video).
If I xraise river on the Bet-X-Bet line and get called by Top Pair weak kicker. What is my takeaway/adjustment (assuming a reg)? I see people taking 1/3 betsize w TPWK a lot on the rivers. Seems similar thinking on their part (get value, don't lose too much vs better hands).
Sure. 1/2 PSB is used a lot in various cbet nodes (IP SRP, OP/IP 3bet pots, etc). It also comes up in later streets sometimes when some sort of card that fills both players top part of value ranges up (flush/straight/etc). This tends to lessen the nut advantage of the polarizer and cause bet sizings to decrease.
Great intro video and I am going to try and catch up on the rest of your videos! Would you suggest thinner value raises against half pot sizing in these situations? Would you raise a hand like KJ on the KT3 44 board as an example? Or should our raises just be more polarized because villain is very condensed with value. Thanks!
Hey RoleTide. Glad you enjoyed it!
Good question. Yes I would. They're range is has lots of merge that we can extract value from. And yes on the KJ. Though that would be the bottom of the value range in that spot vs that sizing.
Hey Frankie Carson thank you for the great video! Finally got around to watching your content. This is something I see and face in literally every single 50nl session so I really appreciate you covering this topic. Lol something I’ve noticed, if I’m check raising, depending on the board, and the sizing, some of the time opponent will fold, or they will call and hold onto some draws or 2nd pair type boards. At times, with their value hands, facing the check raise they’ll just bomb the flop anyway and go all in. Lol great topic! Thank you
I'm glad you enjoyed it Truepower!
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.