Another great video Cory, I can't get enough of those charts! :)
Couple of questions:
Is BB allowed to donk river in your sims after xcalling 2nd barrel on Kx-8x and 8d-6x runouts? I assume BBs no donk/donk strat OTR should shift UTGs threshold for valuebetting?
Also would like to hear your ideas on 8d-Ax runout when BB is supposed to xc 70% out of his "remaining flushes" vs 3rd barrel and xf the rest. How does the solver pick those 30% to fold?
Yes I did allow the solver to play a donking strategy on the river in the triple barrel line in all scenarios. What I've found is that the solver does relatively little donking on the river after IP has double barreled. On a runout where the nuts on the turn is a flush and the river remains a flush, there is obviously no reason to lead because IP has a polar range.
However even on a run out where a flush is the turned nuts and a full house/quads is the nuts on the river, OOP still doesn't donk very often at all. This is because the solver does a better job selecting it's turn double barrels than humans do. The solver includes more sets (and weak two pair as bluffs) so large range asymmetries are rarely created. In practice, donking these spots vs humans might be very effective if they construct their turn ranges poorly. In solver land this doesn't happen.
Regarding the question of which flushes to fold: There wasn't a clear pattern which is why I lumped them together. Sometimes you just have to play mixed strategies in theory. In practice, I would just always fold the lowest flushes which is exploitable (villain could theoretically use specific blockers to exploit this strategy) but this will never happen in human play.
I believe that the clairvoyant bluffing player will be able to select slightly better blockers against a strategy that say folds 7 high flushes or worse 100%. Now they really don't want to bluff with a 7d-2d in their hand. That should allow the clairvoyant player to select a little more intelligently from the pool of possible blocker hands.
It also might be possible that knowing I fold 7 high flush or worse 100% allows you to alter your value range. For instance Q8dd might be a worse value bet than Q7dd now.
Awesome video, I like your methodology and will be very interested in more of these!
On your preflop charts, does QJ for example mean QJhi (as in QJ[T-2][T-2]), or includes hands like AQJ as well? Also, what does A952dsi mean?
You're correct, QJ indicates QJ[T-2][T-2], but excludes AQJ which was already covered under the AQ category.
On the charts themselves I use "ds" to indicate a double suited hand and "ss" to indicate a single suited hand. "r" indicates a rainbow hand. dsi indicates a hand that is double suited improperly which just means (AK)(52) rather than a properly double suited hand (A5)(K2) or (A2)(K5). I just found that parenthesis were too difficult to look differentiate when looking at a long list of hands.
at 30:00 in the utg rfi range, you have 8655dsi, as well as 9877ds. It looks to me like you may have meant 9877ss, because 8655ds already includes 9877ds. Not sure if that made sense, but I'm just wondering if that's the case or if I'm misunderstanding the chart
Yeah you're interpreting the charts correctly. The only other thing I might have been trying to show was the weakest 8 high hand and the weakest 9 high hand with a pair that is opened, but that doesn't make sense in this context because if we're opening 8655ds, then we are also opening 9766ds.
I imagine that 8655ds is the weakest hand the solver is opening here, but as long as you get close to opening these hands, your frequencies will be much better than the competition.
When you talk about how PP's may be undervalued in short stack cold calling ranges (26:40) you say that the reverse implied of hitting a set is not there, but that the value of making a hand with these double suited PP's is massive. Are you saying that the small reverse implied odds do justify incorporating these PP's into short stack cold calling range?
Thanks for making these PLO videos man they are so excellent
Yes, this is exactly what I've observed. While it's always better to make middle set than bottom set, with SPR=4 or similar stack sizes, the opposing player as a lot of incentive to stack off with hands like top two, top and bottom with redraws and other combo hands. Against ranges like this, even 22 does really well on J92ss.
At 100bb, if we x/r 22 on the above board and get called, we're going to have an unpleasant experience on most turn cards.
One caveat is that the these preflop ranges are generated by monker with an abstraction. The abstraction doesn't seem to be greatly impacted by the postflop bet sizing I've given it, but there is always a small chance that either I or the abstraction is causing the preflop ranges to be skewed towards these hands. That being said, the logic of the first paragraph seems pretty airtight to me.
Hi Cory, i play 8-Game With a 40BB Cap, so i really loved this video. . Can you point me in a direction where i can find som good default printable preflop Charts for 40BB?
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Another great video Cory, I can't get enough of those charts! :)
Couple of questions:
Is BB allowed to donk river in your sims after xcalling 2nd barrel on Kx-8x and 8d-6x runouts? I assume BBs no donk/donk strat OTR should shift UTGs threshold for valuebetting?
Also would like to hear your ideas on 8d-Ax runout when BB is supposed to xc 70% out of his "remaining flushes" vs 3rd barrel and xf the rest. How does the solver pick those 30% to fold?
Thanks, glad you're enjoying them!
Yes I did allow the solver to play a donking strategy on the river in the triple barrel line in all scenarios. What I've found is that the solver does relatively little donking on the river after IP has double barreled. On a runout where the nuts on the turn is a flush and the river remains a flush, there is obviously no reason to lead because IP has a polar range.
However even on a run out where a flush is the turned nuts and a full house/quads is the nuts on the river, OOP still doesn't donk very often at all. This is because the solver does a better job selecting it's turn double barrels than humans do. The solver includes more sets (and weak two pair as bluffs) so large range asymmetries are rarely created. In practice, donking these spots vs humans might be very effective if they construct their turn ranges poorly. In solver land this doesn't happen.
Regarding the question of which flushes to fold: There wasn't a clear pattern which is why I lumped them together. Sometimes you just have to play mixed strategies in theory. In practice, I would just always fold the lowest flushes which is exploitable (villain could theoretically use specific blockers to exploit this strategy) but this will never happen in human play.
Nice vid!
Out of curiosity, how can villain use specific blockers to exploit the strategy of folding the lowest flushes?
I believe that the clairvoyant bluffing player will be able to select slightly better blockers against a strategy that say folds 7 high flushes or worse 100%. Now they really don't want to bluff with a 7d-2d in their hand. That should allow the clairvoyant player to select a little more intelligently from the pool of possible blocker hands.
It also might be possible that knowing I fold 7 high flush or worse 100% allows you to alter your value range. For instance Q8dd might be a worse value bet than Q7dd now.
Thanks for the video, awesome stuff. Should also be really valuable for PLO MTT play.
Awesome video, I like your methodology and will be very interested in more of these!
On your preflop charts, does QJ for example mean QJhi (as in QJ[T-2][T-2]), or includes hands like AQJ as well? Also, what does A952dsi mean?
You're correct, QJ indicates QJ[T-2][T-2], but excludes AQJ which was already covered under the AQ category.
On the charts themselves I use "ds" to indicate a double suited hand and "ss" to indicate a single suited hand. "r" indicates a rainbow hand. dsi indicates a hand that is double suited improperly which just means (AK)(52) rather than a properly double suited hand (A5)(K2) or (A2)(K5). I just found that parenthesis were too difficult to look differentiate when looking at a long list of hands.
I never knew I would like a BB DP video, but it turns out I do.
Perfect Video!
Thank you for sharing advanced ways in studing and visulizing this great game.
Another outstanding video!
at 30:00 in the utg rfi range, you have 8655dsi, as well as 9877ds. It looks to me like you may have meant 9877ss, because 8655ds already includes 9877ds. Not sure if that made sense, but I'm just wondering if that's the case or if I'm misunderstanding the chart
Hey Sean,
Yeah you're interpreting the charts correctly. The only other thing I might have been trying to show was the weakest 8 high hand and the weakest 9 high hand with a pair that is opened, but that doesn't make sense in this context because if we're opening 8655ds, then we are also opening 9766ds.
I imagine that 8655ds is the weakest hand the solver is opening here, but as long as you get close to opening these hands, your frequencies will be much better than the competition.
Thanks for pointing that out.
When you talk about how PP's may be undervalued in short stack cold calling ranges (26:40) you say that the reverse implied of hitting a set is not there, but that the value of making a hand with these double suited PP's is massive. Are you saying that the small reverse implied odds do justify incorporating these PP's into short stack cold calling range?
Thanks for making these PLO videos man they are so excellent
Really glad you're enjoying them!
Yes, this is exactly what I've observed. While it's always better to make middle set than bottom set, with SPR=4 or similar stack sizes, the opposing player as a lot of incentive to stack off with hands like top two, top and bottom with redraws and other combo hands. Against ranges like this, even 22 does really well on J92ss.
At 100bb, if we x/r 22 on the above board and get called, we're going to have an unpleasant experience on most turn cards.
One caveat is that the these preflop ranges are generated by monker with an abstraction. The abstraction doesn't seem to be greatly impacted by the postflop bet sizing I've given it, but there is always a small chance that either I or the abstraction is causing the preflop ranges to be skewed towards these hands. That being said, the logic of the first paragraph seems pretty airtight to me.
Hi Cory, i play 8-Game With a 40BB Cap, so i really loved this video. . Can you point me in a direction where i can find som good default printable preflop Charts for 40BB?
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