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Folding Ranges and Deck Analysis

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Folding Ranges and Deck Analysis

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Stelios Serefidis

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Folding Ranges and Deck Analysis

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Stelios Serefidis

POSTED Feb 08, 2016

Stelio delves into an interesting concept discussing how folded hand ranges can effect the makeup of the remaining ranges behind.

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Brice Gower 9 years, 1 month ago

Great topic! Keep up the good work. I'll probably come back with a few questions as soon as I'm finished with a couple of exams I have this week!

hakunamatata 9 years, 1 month ago

As i understand correct when you was doing calculation of for example mp folding range distribution you use as starting deck distribution the "standart starting deck distribution" (not including the information that utg folded). I would imagine that if you take utg folding range into consideration the final effect could be greater.

Stelios Serefidis 9 years, 1 month ago

Yes, as I said, I did my calculations for mp and co ignoring the previous folds. I m not sure if we should take into consideration previous folds or not, but if we do then calculatons will be way more complex, so I decided to ignore it.

rekop 9 years, 1 month ago

i didn´t see the hole video, but wouldn´t we open more when we are 3 players instead of 6?.
Because we only make "green numbers" in the database when we are not in the blinds. And when we are 3 handed we only have one chance to make the "green number" and that´s the BTN. And when you are 6 handed you have EP,MP,CO and BTN to fix green numbers.
That must force us to play more and more aggressive from the BTN?

Stelios Serefidis 9 years, 1 month ago

If you can force yourself to make more money from the button in a 3handed game, then you might also force yourself to do the same in 6max, otherwise you just leave money on the table. You are right that we should open our button more when we are 3 players, but these are definately not the reasons why.

Seth 9 years, 1 month ago

In 6max game ep, mp, co, btn and sb are all stealing the blinds. In 3max only sb and btn are stealing the blinds. So in 6max you have more positions to make up your blinds losses, but at the same time they are significant higher than in 3max.

ETLJ 9 years, 1 month ago

Kind of related to your 'food for thought' slide...
Could we assume that we are much less likely to flop a set with 22-55 if it folds to us on the button/small blind in a typical 6-max/full-ring cash game?

Gay Theory 9 years, 1 month ago

i learnt something new, altho it seems obvious, i was kind of ignoring this and never perceiving folds as kind of information, also had lately often a question in my mind, that if i can open same ranges in 9m as 6m . While this vid not exactly answer it, at least i started to think more about what kind of boards can come, so yeah some AX KX boards more often then, if lot of players open them

Also it a bit answered my question like: "why that fakin Ace always comes?"

Jen Shahade 9 years, 1 month ago

Love this vid concept. Was just in a Deuces Wild tourney at an EPT, where I was thinking about this while drinking wine and folding kings. There the effect is extreme, because it plays 9 handed and obv no one openfolds a deuce. So when folded to SB, BB's chances of having a deuce go up past 20%, 1-(4/36)* 1- (4/35). Being conscious of the extreme situation does make you appreciate how it can apply more moderately, so constructing ranges that include more offsuit aces at a fullring table could yield some fun results.

Leakmaster1907 9 years, 1 month ago

I guess the ultimate question is: is the difference big enough to change your strategy. In other words, how would your opening range change if at all when everyone folded to you and you are looking into the blinds who are a little bit more likely to have better cards. That's an idea for your next video :)

Also 9-10 handed analysis of the same topic would be even more interesting!

Thank you for this nice video!!

Stelios Serefidis 9 years, 1 month ago

I assume you mean how would I deviate from my 6max bu opening range when playing full ring. I think cutting off some of my weaker hands makes sence, the same goes for you but I cant really tell you a spesific range, because probably we play differently in 6max and thus we will end up playing differently in full ring. I thought about making a second vid for 9 handed but looks like a waste of time, since you can very easily do it yourself using the method I use in this video. It is the exact same exercise, just with different numbers!

Linc 9 years ago

great video and smart way to address the problem. Videos like this are the reason why i still sometimes resubscribe to this site. The snowie video was nice too, hope more videos of that will come too. Doing some snowie work myself.

Im an MTT player. The current trend (actually for quite some time now already) is calling the bb super wide vs minraises. Im not following that to the degree i see some other people defending. Now I noticed when i played full ring games in snowie, my defends still have been too wide. I know though this is us assuming very balanced opponents. But lets say even if i wanted to learn about good defends vs very tough/balanced opponents in mtts, the problem is snowie does not have an ante scenario. How big do you think is the effect of the ante in terms of ranges? Kind of a tough question to answer generally I know...

Also what would be your views on blind defends in mtts, where stacks are shallower and there are ICM considerations on the one hand, but there are antes and players are worse on the other hand?

Stelios Serefidis 9 years ago

I have two good ideas about your problems
1) antes have to do with pot-odds, so you can create scenarios where you limp then snowie makes a 2x or 3x raise depending on the odds you want to have so that it s like an ante game, then everybody else folds and the action is back to you.
2) snowie offers scenarios even with 15bb so you can practice shortstack defends for sure. Now implying ICM is too tough, but you can think of it as an 'odds-decrease'. Now the hardest question is 'how big is this decrease?', well I think it varies and basically depends on the exact spot you face, because ICM affects your strategies differently, depending on the tournament structure, players left etc. Obviously you understand that these facts make it a really tough concept to break down!

Linc 9 years ago

thanks man nice idea to simulate the ante will def do that. Appreciate the thoughts

Jeffrey Pringle 8 years, 7 months ago

Thank you so much for the hard work in making this video. It really helped my with some of my unanswered questions. Some of us less math intense guys want to think about these concepts but have a hard time finding a starting point to develop good foundations from. I play exclusively high states live games, mostly 9 handed and I hope to draw on some of your thoughts in the near future.

philbr 8 years, 6 months ago

Very insightful and nice theory for sure, but the issue I got with this is that let's say 6 handed games have a much different dynamic than playing 3 handed has. In 6 handed games your BTN opens won't be nearly as much attacked like in 3 handed games. Would love to hear your thoughts on this and really would like to see more theory videos from you in the future. Thanks!

Stelios Serefidis 8 years, 6 months ago

I assumed that we have the exact same opponents on the blinds with the same stacks, so there is no reason for them to change their strategies apart from folding ranges of course.

nzrod 8 years, 2 months ago

Well structured and taught. Thank you. I was wondering about the practicality of it until I reached the Answer slide and the Food for Thought slide.

kingkong 7 years, 9 months ago

Hi, I don't understand how you count the combos when you say Ax = Kx = Qx = 2x = 198

I also don't understand when you say the '=2x' part.

I mean I understand there are as many AX as Kx, I just don't understand what combos you are counting to come up at 198. I mean if I only count from A2 to A5 there are already 80 combos.

EDC 7 years, 2 months ago

Hey kingkong,

Regarding Ax = Kx = Qx = 2x = 198:
12 x 12 = 144 (12 card combinations of unsuited cards - that's why times 12)
12 x 4 = 48 (12 card combinations of suited cards - that's why times 4)
6 combos of a pair.
144+48+6= 198

or

12*16 = 192 (12 times 16 combos of all let's say Ax) + 6 combos of a pair = 198.

EDC

camikaze007 7 years, 8 months ago

I understand this is an old-ish video, but am I right in thinking that the more folds there are the likelihood of higher cards coming on the flop increases and the lower cards decrease? If so this would decrease the value of small pocket pairs whilst simultaneously increasing the value of strong broadways when in late position and everyone has folded.

limboxpurt 7 years, 7 months ago

As I understand it, the answer to your question is yes. The food for thought slide is a perfect example of what you are getting at. When it's AKo vs 77 blind v blind, we not only expect more As and Ks left in deck, we also expect less 7s.

George Archer 6 years, 9 months ago

Fantastic video.
Presumably this would be really useful in game when for example we’re in a multi-way pot on the river or turn (so ranges are more narrow) and someone folds, the removal effect of them folding their hand will be much greater. I’m struggling to find a practical scenario where this would become really useful though, could anyone help me out with an example of where we can really use this concept?

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