I Checkraised the Flop...Now What?
Posted by Tyler Forrester
Video Player is loading.
This is a modal window.
The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported.
Resume Video
Start from Beginning
Watch Video
10
Loading 21 Comments...
Hi. I was thinking about what you said about needing to randomize. But theoretically in an anonymous game where noone adjusts to our strat, why wouldn't we just always take the lower variance option if we assume the two options are similar ev? For example never making 0 ev bluff catches, never making the 0 ev river bluffs, and calling instead of x/r (if we assume the two options are similar ev).
I completely agree. The trouble is I don't know what line is higher EV here against the player pool, so exploring the game tree using a randomized strategy that's close to GTO makes sense. If I knew which line was best (or even equal EV), I could just choose the higher EV line or the lower variance one.
While watching I was surprised the QK raise didn’t have any mention of your Qx. He now basically beats any Qx that you decided to x/r and you are much more heavily weighted toward those and flush draws. So he can get value from Qx and deny equity to flush draws.
Seems like you were much more concerned with 5x but I would have guessed given the 5 your range is pretty Qx heavy for value. But maybe you don’t x/r those often or perhaps you check Qx super often on this turn? (If so it’s easy to be very heavily weighted toward bluffs because we won’t have many 5x so again I see merit in the raise exploitatively).
This card is supposed to be checked very frequently from the OOP players perspective and Qx is rarely (ever?) value bet. Basically, IP turn calling range is some draws, 5x and Qs, so Qx is a -EV bet, because of this we will also checkfold some draws that would normally barrel. I believe J8cc is to high up in range to check, but I could be convinced otherwise, (especially exploitatively if the player always plays raise or fold on turn).
Another great video at this point in time!
Thanks TuningPunk!
hey great vid.
a few times you mention " im betting bc not strong enuf to xr and cant rly xc " like at 25min with j8cc and earlier with 7c6x at 15min... i have looked at these spots before and not sure thats the way it works always... like for ex i think 7c6x actually mostly x turn and mix raise and moreso fold like there a lot of hands on 884ccQc that fall into the not strong enuf to xr but have a club like 9c7x tx9c and cant barrel them all escp when ip bet call tons of overs with club and not so much without so like our hands dont have that much equity actually and dont wanna pile money in
For sure, I agree. Basically, I think the heuristic of weak flushdraw + gutshot is usually too weak to checkraise, but too strong to check. In this particular spot with lots of gutshots + weak flushdraws, I'm not surprised to see the weakest like 7c6 just check-folded, though I believe my EV loss here by barreling is relatively small.
There's a similar argument with Jc8c, but I think that barrel is actually worse, because of my perceived range (even if its likely a mix between bet and check/fold).
Nice video Tyler as always...
I think raise turn with KQo vs J8cc made by opponent its very interesting and good exploit against OOP´s who are betting turn with all the flush draws that cant check call. There´s actually lot of check fold with fd´s in play on the turn..
According to my experiments, IP can improve at least for more than 1% of the pot by pure value raising KQ+ and not folding any pocketpair till the river.
Thanks Juan, for the analysis. That's really interesting exploit :).
loved the video!
Thanks Mrfeijai!
Hey, Tyler Forrester - Happy New Year! Thanks for another great video. It is good to know that the "check-raise flop, check-fold turn" line is a valid GTO line, even though it does feel quite wimpy. I think my main takeaway from this video is that if I structure my turn checking range properly after check-raising the flop, I don't have to worry about it. And also, on the turn, the options of barrel/check-call/check-raise look much more split (with most hand types) than I was aware of. Thanks, Tyler!
Thanks OMG glad you enjoyed the video!
Fantastic video, thanks. Could you please tell me how the graphs in the beginning of the video were made? Kind regards
Looks like R or python (I use python to make very similar ones). They're called stacked bar graphs (if I'm remembering the video correctly). You can generate csv files from you PIO sims then read those in with R or python.
As far as I'm aware you'll have to write some functions to determine hand class (at least I did -- I know PIO must have the functions written already internally but the csv files don't seem to include anything like that).
Radtupperware (i just realized how great this name is :)) nailed it. I'm using ggplot2 in R to make the plots with some custom functions to label the hand groups.
At minute 12:27, could you elect to use a probe range with hands such as 7x? I feel like we don't have enough strong hands to develop a polar betting range here.
Gto would definitely probe here sometimes, but the trouble is that the gto strategy with two betsizes on the turn is very difficult to execute (I'm not sure it's even possible for human) and only has a slight gain in EV (think $2 or 3 dollars here).
13min which hands would you prefer to call there? K7cc/75cc they kinda both 0 EV calls K7 seems stronger right?
so how about 87cc/75cc?
Getting owned in KQ/J8cc and A9/98 hands :)
K7 would be stronger and is closer to a call, because you'll see players make this bet with 87-Q8 here sometimes. 87, I think is equivalent to 75 here, because 76 and 88 blockers are such a small part of range.
Apparently someone in the player pool had just had it with checkraises. It looks really good if I'm bluffing and really bad if I'm not :).
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.