This is pretty difficult to measure, because there are so many variables that go into someone's 3bet % from the BB specifically, and by the time you get a significant sample they; 1. Might have changed their ranges a couple times since you started playing them, and 2. Likely made some adjustments vs you specifically. Very generally speaking, when I start seeing around the 17-20% mark from the BB I begin throwing some looser 4bets in there.
How do you recommend identifying players whose strategies are exploitable in these spots, especially the exploits you mention where they wouldn't be identifiable from a single showdown, or from any realistic sample size data-wise? What kind of heuristics do you use?
Reads in general is something that is very difficult to quantify, because there are so many varying factors that matter (such as your opponent playing tilted, or drunk). For me personally I would say good, diligent note taking is the biggest factor that contributes to me adjusting my strategies vs players. If your notes are good and not too wordy, you should be able to spot trends in your opponents game that you can exploit. Of course once you start adjusting so will your opponent, so it's all about staying focused, taking in all the information you're given and making your best guess on what he/she is doing ;)
Hi, Krzysztof Slaski - Thanks for a great video, yet again. While I appreciate (admire?) the "fancy shmancy" 4bet range you used in this video, how might your 4bet range be composed differently vs opponents who 3bet with far too strong of a range? Thanks, Krzysztof!
So if someone is playing a tight 3bet range but still decently balanced and I think they play well postlop, I will cut some of the "value" 4bets, but keep the composition of my bluffing region relatively the same with lower frequencies. If I am playing a super tight opponent who just doesn't 3bet unless they have it, I will only 4bet the very premium stuff and not worry too much about what my 4betting range looks like.
Krzysztof Slaski - Thanks for the help! I was definitely thinking along the lines of someone who only 3bets a very strong "linear-ish" range. I know it seems somewhat self-evident that if they only 3bet with very strong hands and are oblivious enough to not realize that this is a problem then we shouldn't 4bet bluff them, but I always feel awkward when I 4bet my Super-GTO range of AA, KK, and AKs against these guys nonetheless. =D
At the 15 minute mark you say A8/66 etc go for 3 streets of geometric sizing but your PIO inputs do not include the possibility of the same bet size on all streets for IP, can you please explain this discrepancy?
Hey,
I don't include an exhaustive selection of betting options in the tree because the solver would take forever to run, and the strategy would become impossible to follow/analyze. Essentially what I meant with my statement is that the bet sizing chosen by pio is one which is closest to geometric (and in this spot it would likely chose the geometric size if it had the option, but wouldn't be a significant ev difference from the slightly smaller bet)
Why I didn’t watch it before...
Really a great one !
Quick question : How do you change your strat if you are play in high rake environnement ?
At the end of the video, you talked about making other overbet videos.
Not because my passion in poker is to put max pressure by shoving 8x pot, but I would suggest a exploit 101 video on polar spot, (BTN VS BB for example). When IP goes for small/big bet flop | ovb turn | and | ovb river (not necessarily all in) | on SPR.
I noticed that people often under bluffcatch vs super agression most of the time ( but not always too much , because to easy to reach mdf otherwise and defending only set and dp).
It also exploit some vilain who are not protecting their xc range vs small size on flop enough.
Might be some Turn OvB prob also , spots where if vilain is not defended enough (and it would be very difficult even checking range well protected) , we start to bluff very weird hands, (near all the Ah)
Anyway, it is just a suggestion, but definitely an exploit to create here, any limits, who might be very helpful for a lot of player.
How do you change your strat if you are play in high rake environnement ?
The higher the rake the more important it is to try to end the hand sooner. So I would 4bet a little more frequently compared to calling, and I would use a larger 4bet sizing. This of course means that blockers become more important as opposed to the suited connectors when designing your 4betting ranges.
Thanks for the video suggestion, sound pretty interesting and I will keep everything you said in mind when making the next exploits 101 overbet video (which is definitely coming since the last one got a lot of positive feedback)
Just got to this video since I usually only watch the sauce content. But this vid was really really good and made me realize how much I sucked in 4b pots. Really liked making some changes to how I set up my 4b range now compared to when I just bluff every time with a5s this helps a lot where I can be more aggro with my 4bs vs these regs who 3b much and I can get them In some spots I understand better than they do (I hope)
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Lion - Leo :(
I put him up as soon as you guys mentioned it, but I had about 3 more videos uploaded so he won't show up for a while
What 3betting range from BB(%) would you suggest attack as IP player with 4 bets more frequently?
Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean what's the threshold where I start 4betting more than usual?
exactly
This is pretty difficult to measure, because there are so many variables that go into someone's 3bet % from the BB specifically, and by the time you get a significant sample they; 1. Might have changed their ranges a couple times since you started playing them, and 2. Likely made some adjustments vs you specifically. Very generally speaking, when I start seeing around the 17-20% mark from the BB I begin throwing some looser 4bets in there.
How do you recommend identifying players whose strategies are exploitable in these spots, especially the exploits you mention where they wouldn't be identifiable from a single showdown, or from any realistic sample size data-wise? What kind of heuristics do you use?
Reads in general is something that is very difficult to quantify, because there are so many varying factors that matter (such as your opponent playing tilted, or drunk). For me personally I would say good, diligent note taking is the biggest factor that contributes to me adjusting my strategies vs players. If your notes are good and not too wordy, you should be able to spot trends in your opponents game that you can exploit. Of course once you start adjusting so will your opponent, so it's all about staying focused, taking in all the information you're given and making your best guess on what he/she is doing ;)
Hi, Krzysztof Slaski - Thanks for a great video, yet again. While I appreciate (admire?) the "fancy shmancy" 4bet range you used in this video, how might your 4bet range be composed differently vs opponents who 3bet with far too strong of a range? Thanks, Krzysztof!
Hey, thanks !
So if someone is playing a tight 3bet range but still decently balanced and I think they play well postlop, I will cut some of the "value" 4bets, but keep the composition of my bluffing region relatively the same with lower frequencies. If I am playing a super tight opponent who just doesn't 3bet unless they have it, I will only 4bet the very premium stuff and not worry too much about what my 4betting range looks like.
Cheers.
Krzysztof Slaski - Thanks for the help! I was definitely thinking along the lines of someone who only 3bets a very strong "linear-ish" range. I know it seems somewhat self-evident that if they only 3bet with very strong hands and are oblivious enough to not realize that this is a problem then we shouldn't 4bet bluff them, but I always feel awkward when I 4bet my Super-GTO range of AA, KK, and AKs against these guys nonetheless. =D
At the 15 minute mark you say A8/66 etc go for 3 streets of geometric sizing but your PIO inputs do not include the possibility of the same bet size on all streets for IP, can you please explain this discrepancy?
Hey,
I don't include an exhaustive selection of betting options in the tree because the solver would take forever to run, and the strategy would become impossible to follow/analyze. Essentially what I meant with my statement is that the bet sizing chosen by pio is one which is closest to geometric (and in this spot it would likely chose the geometric size if it had the option, but wouldn't be a significant ev difference from the slightly smaller bet)
Why I didn’t watch it before...
Really a great one !
Quick question : How do you change your strat if you are play in high rake environnement ?
At the end of the video, you talked about making other overbet videos.
Not because my passion in poker is to put max pressure by shoving 8x pot, but I would suggest a exploit 101 video on polar spot, (BTN VS BB for example). When IP goes for small/big bet flop | ovb turn | and | ovb river (not necessarily all in) | on SPR.
I noticed that people often under bluffcatch vs super agression most of the time ( but not always too much , because to easy to reach mdf otherwise and defending only set and dp).
It also exploit some vilain who are not protecting their xc range vs small size on flop enough.
Might be some Turn OvB prob also , spots where if vilain is not defended enough (and it would be very difficult even checking range well protected) , we start to bluff very weird hands, (near all the Ah)
Anyway, it is just a suggestion, but definitely an exploit to create here, any limits, who might be very helpful for a lot of player.
Hey, thank you !
The higher the rake the more important it is to try to end the hand sooner. So I would 4bet a little more frequently compared to calling, and I would use a larger 4bet sizing. This of course means that blockers become more important as opposed to the suited connectors when designing your 4betting ranges.
Thanks for the video suggestion, sound pretty interesting and I will keep everything you said in mind when making the next exploits 101 overbet video (which is definitely coming since the last one got a lot of positive feedback)
Cheers.
Hi Krzysztof Slaski!
Thanks for a great video.
I have been doing some of my own analysis in SB vs BTN 4b pots.
But im super confused at one situation.
Almost all of my sims the BTN has a big equity advantage on the flop.
Except 2 boards were around 50%/50%.
Qs 6d 4s
and
Ts 9d 8s
Strangely the SB leads 70% for a small sizing on the Qs 6d 4s.
But almost never leads on the Ts9d8s.
What do you look at to determine the reasoning for this ?
I understood leading to occur with big equity/range advantages.
Thanks in advance.
Just got to this video since I usually only watch the sauce content. But this vid was really really good and made me realize how much I sucked in 4b pots. Really liked making some changes to how I set up my 4b range now compared to when I just bluff every time with a5s this helps a lot where I can be more aggro with my 4bs vs these regs who 3b much and I can get them In some spots I understand better than they do (I hope)
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