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Value Bluffing (part 4)

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Value Bluffing (part 4)

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Daniel Dvoress

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Value Bluffing (part 4)

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Daniel Dvoress

POSTED Nov 15, 2014

In this video, Daniel takes a practical approach and uses an example to analyze a Valuebluffing opportunity.

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kluka 10 years, 5 months ago

Nice video,

I would like to see u talk more how hands fit into a range
With the right assumptions any hand could be better as a bet then as a check, that doesnt mean thats a good strategy tho.

Daniel Dvoress 10 years, 5 months ago

What do you mean by this? Do you mean to say that 99 should be played a certain way here because of our whole range? If so, why would you take a line that is less +EV when compared to another line with a specific hand? Your goal should be to play every hand in a way that maximizes the expectation of playing that hand.

Daniel Dvoress 10 years, 5 months ago

What do you mean by this? Do you mean to say that 99 should be played a certain way here because of our whole range? If so, why would you take a line that is less +EV when compared to another line with a specific hand? Your goal should be to play every hand in a way that maximizes the expectation of playing that hand.

kluka 10 years, 5 months ago

Well u put a set of conditions (wich i mostly agree with) where 99 has more EV as a bet then as a check. However for instance for a while i played a strategy where i didnt 3bet vs EP opens on any position (not saying this is good) vs this strategy 99 is pbb better as a check then as a bet, since villian has QQ+ and can float some more aswell beceause of this.
And probably more important: intuintively 99 seems like a hand in the middle of our range, on a board that slightly favours our opponent. And therefore seems to me like a very good checking candidate

Daniel Dvoress 10 years, 5 months ago

Well yes, 99 works better as a bet than a check given the conditions under which I set out to analyse the hand (and which in my experience are representative of a lot of opponents you would encounter). Of course you can't expand this to how you should play versus all opponents - like you said if villain didn't have an IP 3betting range this analysis wouldn't hold up.

I strongly disagree with:

99 seems like a hand in the middle of our range, on a board that
slightly favours our opponent. And therefore seems to me like a very
good checking candidate

This is a general statement but IMO making a gameplan via such general approaches leads to leaks. The rule of thumb of playing the middle of your range passively isn't there because playing all hands which are in the middle of your range passively nets the most EV, rather it's there because it is easy to remember and is generally an okay, but not perfect approach. If you can definitely show that line A nets higher EV than line B in this spot when it comes to 99, would you still check 99 in spite of this based on it being a hand that is in the middle of your range?

malejaculation 10 years, 5 months ago

I really like how you approach this spot. You´re very pedagogic and your videos (whatched them all) have definitely improved my game, both how i analyse situations off table but mostly how to apply the theory in game, while playing.

Thanks!

kknives 10 years, 5 months ago

hi daniel,
i really like this method to analize hands, but i'm a bit uncertain about some numbers. For example, why do you think that we win 15% pot when oppo's holding is underset/tp and so on?
My guess is the following: 95% of time we don't hit a set and we c/f, so we win 0bb; 5% of time we hit a set and i think we can stack off oppo. The max we can win are 18 (pot) + 92 of oppo's stack, and so 110bb, of course sometimes 3of flush, 4of straight or something like that come on board (or he gets quads) and so we overall win a bit less, lets say 90bb. So, 0x0.95+90x0.05= 4,5bb that on 18 is about the 25% of the pot. Vs TP hands we win a lot less because we won't stack oppo on a lot of river card, so let's say we win 18 + 40 of oppo's stack, is overall 3bb on 18, so 17%. Vs air we win a lot less, vs overset we lose a lot more and so on. Do you think my calcs make any sense?
Also, i'm a bit doubtful on your method of splitting oppo's range when the ranges are much wider (for example btn vs bb) or when the flop is much more wet/dynamic (and so figure out how much % of pot we win is more difficult). Do you ever make this analysis in this kind of spots?Is it possible to see one of it in one of your next video in future?
Lastly, i'm unsure of how estimate the ev of the check to compare it to bet. How did you find the 65% of equity realizing? I'm incapable of reasoning on equity realization. However, my guess is that maybe we can find out something from hm, i've tried to set a filter on this situation (my raised hu pot, oop, not cbet, flop raimbow without straight, hand value second or third pair) and it comes that i win -130bb/100, so I THINK that the calcs are that i should lose -300 if i openfold on flop (because i raise 3x pre), so i win 1.7bb on the pot of 8bb, and so i have 1.7/8= 21% of pot when i check and so i can put this value on the checkdown to see the ev of check (i don't know really if this calc make any sense). However, the problem here is that of course the sample size is really low (about 300 hands on this year), the flop filter isn't very accurate (we have KQ on AK5, 55 on KQ7 and TT on KJ8, which are not of course very similar situation) and of course the value of -130 could be affected by my own bad play.
I'm sorry for the lenght of this comment, thanks for any reply :)

Daniel Dvoress 10 years, 5 months ago

Hey, lots of questions here so I'll reply in parts.

How I calculate the % realized: yes, basically your approach, although I think your estimate of 25% is a little optimistic - I don't think we stack our opponent quite as often as you think, plus we don't have 100% equity when we do set over set him. These little things add up when it comes to playing potentially huge pots. My 15% top-end estimate was I believe a bit on the conservative side - reason being I wanted to see if we can definitively show that betting 99 is better even given pessimistic/careful assumptions. But - who knows what the actual % is. The only thing I would add is that you have to make sure to be logically consistent. For example, if you think you get that much when you set over set your opponent, you also have to make yourself lose that much in the other part of the tree where your opponent has top set and you set-under-set yourself.

Daniel Dvoress 10 years, 5 months ago

To answer your other questions:

When you get to wider ranges or more wet boards, yes it becomes much harder, but it's by no means impossible. A spot like that would have to be approached differently though, as you would need to have several turns/rivers (or at least several types - for example flush completing and non flush completing on a two-tone board). The process is often a pain in the butt, and sometimes halfway you realize that the spot is so complex that you can't really get CREV to spit out a meaningful number. IMO this is fine because the process itself is useful, even if you failed at your goal. So the short answer to your question is: yes it gets harder in those spots, yes sometimes I try to solve, mostly I fail, but always I'd learn something in the process.

Equity realization - this is a really tough one. The 65% was basically an educated guess (that in my opinion was on the extreme end so would provide a useful boundary). It was based on experience with toying around with CREV and also seeing what other players/people I talk to estimate in this spot. As you allude to - it's pretty unfortunate to have to essentially guess when taking an otherwise technical approach to the analysis, but I've yet to find a way around it. I would certainly NOT use HEM to figure out what that number is, though. As you point out, you are never going to get a meaningful sample for this spot. The only way to do it is to generalize it and filter for spots like this one, but that defeats the purpose.

Thinking about it more the first thing I would look at is how often we have to c/f. That shouldn't be the hardest thing to figure out, and the equity versus villains check back range can be estimated fairly accurately as well - knowing those two variables you could get closer to a more supported estimate. All in all though I would approach the problem from that end, not a data-driven one.

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