Crushing Live NLHE
Posted by Garrett Adelstein
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Nice to have you back G-man, been too long
Also, I usually am really good about responding to comments quickly. I've just had a few crazy days after my epic failure at Survivor, so sorry about the delayed response time.
Great video. Do you ever see 4bet bluffing in Live poker cash games you play? Surely the best regulars in your games would be capable of it? From my limited experience playing live cash games its non existent even light 3betting is rare.
I never saw a 7 way limped pot in 2006 online.
I see 4 bet bluffing all the time in the games I play. But plenty often that will be in a shorthanded 20/40 or 50/100 live NLHE game. In a typical FR 10/20 NL it is much more rare but you will see it occasionally.
And you are right, light 3 betting in 10/20 NL even is somewhat rare. If anything, the regs will do something like 3B their top 10% hands instead of their top 3-4%. These depolarized, value-oriented 3 betting ranges are easy to play against as you can just fold your non-premium hands if they aren't deep enough. And if they are playing deep (particularly if you are in position), you always have a much better feel for their range than the other way around.
^ Live reg. <3 you
Thanks! Even I still get weirded out calling myself that 3 years later...
Do you feel there is a significant difference in live game quality at the 2/5, 5/10 level in SoCal versus Vegas? (I'm of course assuming way back at some point you used to play small stakes live)
Sorry, no feel for this one. I haven't played a hand lower than 10/20 in the So Cal area.
Never played small stakes live unfortunately. Went from small to high stakes online from 2004 to 2006.
hey, great video!
At my local casino the game that runs most is £1/£1 blinds with average stacks around the table of probably about 150bb, (cap is 300 but no one buys in for that). The majority of players are loose passive, the rake is 5% with £7 cap. Would you still recommend playing psycho in these circumstances?
As I discussed, so much of what I do a the tables is to get paid off in the 1000 bb pots. With stacks being much shorter in your game + the players likely being so bad that they'll pay you off either way, much of the value of playing maniacal is lost. Plus playing 40% of your hands is much harder to do anyway!
Nice video! i remember steve444 making a vid for live mtts but its nice that someone made a vid for live cash games as well.
I have 1 question which has nothing to do with anything you said you can ignore or even remove if you think its inappropriate. However i do think its really important in live cash games (Especially private) with all the shady personalities playing in them.
Let's assume that you are playing in a live game and think that somebody is cheating somehow even with the dealer's help , do you have any suggestions about how to make sure if he is or not ?
If I could prove it, then I would bring it to the attention of someone who has the power to make it stop assuming you don't think the supervisor is involved. Otherwise I would be fine just pulling that person aside and saying something like "I know what you are up to, when I am at the tables, don't try that or I will get management involved." I have said something similar a few times to people who I think are colluding, trying to look at my cards, or doing something shady in some other form. With that said, attempted cheating in a casino environment is very very rare in my experience. That peace of mind makes playing in a casino vs a home game well worth it for me.
Liked the idea of thinking of the pro nit as a placeholder who makes you money by allowing you to play shorthanded with the weaker players, never thought of it like that before.
Do you use any tools to formulate your strategy vs each player? Thinking of stuff like note-taking etc...Seems difficult to do stuff like make notes on opponents play while maintaining a crazy/fun image at the table.
I've never been a note-taker, even when I played online believe it or not. I'm fortunate enough to have a memory where I just remember everything about a player and his tendencies. It's weird though, because even if he introduces himself to me 5 times, I still probably won't be able to remember his name.
Live poker is really slow as I'm sure you know. There is always a ton of time to be developing and revising your attack plan against every player.
Very good video. Super happy to see a live nlhe vid series (from you). Esp one that will be talking and focusing on how to properly utilize the laggy/maniac image and style. Im interested in learning how you deal with some of the "problems" that lags face at the table tho- like getting a tarnished image at times, frustration, feeling like you're getting played back at a ton, and maybe some thoughts on the larger swings that (usually) come with playing that way. Ive always played that way too so it will be great to learn from someone who is doing it ultra successfully. Thank you for making this! and looking forward to the rest.
Sure. Without question playing super LAGy has it's share of downsides. There is a reason very few try it and much fewer pull it off successfully.
I think confidence is a big part of it. You really have to believe in yourself and believe in what you are doing on a theoretical level. I can't tell you how many sessions I've played where it just feels like I don't win a single pot all night even though I'm playing like half of them.
The tarnished image thing is a real problem. On the days I can't seem to win a pot, I think it's not just in my head that the other regs feel more comfortable getting involved in one form or another. In that spot I don't necessarily start playing super nitty, but I will often tighten up some so I am doing a bit better in a range vs range situation. This is very dependent on the game though of course. If I have the best spot ever to my right limping 80% sitting 1000 BB deep, you better believe the chaos will continue.
Frustration and the feeling that everyone around you thinks you suck are real issues as well. This is where knowing you are the man, knowing your game is much stronger than everyone else's really helps you. As poker players we shouldn't care what the 4 nitty regs at the table think of how we play on a day we are getting crushed, but that really is so much easier said than done. It's not worth getting into it with them verbally or saying anything at all really as they are talking crap about your game/play that day. If anything, remember that the worse people think you play, the better it is for me. As I said, many of the regs still think I suck or suck on some days or whatever.
Aside from maintaining confidence, bankroll management is the key to dealing with swings. When you have 10,000 BB in the games you play, losing 10% is just not as big of a deal. But the swings are real and frustrating and because you are playing so few hands an hour, you really have to be mentally strong. It is one of many, mnay soft skills that are critical in live poker. Are you tough enough to get crushed one day, or 5 days, or 30 days, and still go to work the next day feeling confident and getting the hours in?
Very glad to see that you are making videos again Gman.
Would you recommend this style in lower limit live games? 1/2 and 2/5?
How do you feel about limping behind in position a lot?
I personally have noticed that iso raising does not work as well live because I'm getting multiple callers and seeing 4-6 way flops regularly which obviously forces me to show up with a hand a lot of the time.
Yeah i notice this in the live games i have played to. I raise to 13x preflop with AAs and still manage to get 6 callers! I see a flop of 7,8,9 monotone and i c/f without no clubs in my hand.
I can't speak for Garrett Adelstein, but I think it is important to
remember that he is mostly talking about mid to higher stakes live
games, which, to my knowledge usually have very high buyin caps or no
cap at all meaning on average they will be playing MUCH deeper. I would
assume that his recommendation of the psychotic style is fine and
becomes progressively better as stacks get deeper and as games become
shorter handed, but he never says to go crazy when sitting 9-10 handed with shallow stacks.
As I discussed in the comment above a bit: Ya that rake, like most small stakes games, if definitely tough to
beat. Further, because everyone plays so loose passive both pre and
post in a game like that, it almost certainly would be better to tighten
up a good amount.
As I discussed, so much of what I do a the
tables is to get paid off in the 1000 bb pots. With stacks being much
shorter in your game + the players likely being so bad that they'll pay
you off either way, much of the value of playing maniacal is lost. Plus
playing 40% of your hands is much harder to do anyway!
Limping behind in position can be fine. I do it much less than most, however. It's best in a spot where you suspect 1-2 of the limpers have very strong hands and you are susceptible to a limp reraise.
Raising is often better because you: usually are isolating poor players, their ranges are usually weak, you are building a pot in position, you are protecting your range, and it's just good for your image in general. Those are just a few reasons off the top of my head.
If the flop is going 4-6 ways, both raising even bigger and tightening up your raising range a bit so it's easier to make hands are ways of combating 6 way flops. But it's really not that big of a deal to see the flop go 3-6 ways, it happens to me all the time. On certain textures it can still make sense to cbet the flop small when you whiff. Remember the guy behind you with a semi-strong hand still has 4 other guys to worry about. And in general, you don't need to be winning the pot all that often to show a profit in that spot. Further, because people think you are a maniac and don't understand your betting range is so much stronger 6 ways than 3, you still get paid off way way more than you should when he has KJ on K72...4...4 or whatever.
you know, this video was, you know, a little too vague, you know.
And I also promise you, there is nobody on earth who hates the "you knows" and "likes" more than me. I cringed over and over again listening to this video.
I've been out of the video production game for a bit, so I am a bit rusty. Although I suspect I will always use fillers more than I would like, I will try to focus on avoiding it as much as possible moving forward. Sorry!
Nice to get the insight of a big winning live player. These concepts/style for the most part are exclusively 5/10+. Looking forward to this series
you really need te stop "you knowing" ... damn... !
Looking forward to your next vids, like the live tips !
Gman, are you chillin with Blitzerian now a days?
I love not paying off live. like sick non payoffs..
?
"having an attack ...........etc" sound great but can you be more specifics ? ..... this video sound excellent to me ... thank you.
Really good. More please
Nice vid.
"You really have to believe in yourself and believe in what you are doing on a theoretical level"
I was wondering if you work a lot on developing balanced ranges for different bet sizes etc since you mentioned "theoretical level," or other GTO type of work. The leaks a lot of live players have are so gross and exploitable that I'm sure you deviate mostly and just pown face however it happens but i was wondering if you spend a lot of time working on a GTO base line strategy or other types of balance type work (maybe with having an over betting strategy where you actually break down roughly what your range would look like etc etc). Again, thanks for the feedback boss
But yes I have done a lot of work with GTO over the years, and no it's not often relevant in live poker except for against someone who a) plays very well and b) you play with a ton. Fortunately there are very few of a) in live poker.
looking forward to rest of vids...can you talk what steps to take to go from being on the nitty side to more your style? 3b more ip? or make loser calls pre? semi bluff raise turn more, etc. Whenever I open up my game I always feel like I'm spewing and end up coming back to tight is right. Perhaps I'm not as experienced in finding those spots. Thx!
Man, I've had this conversation with so many people, and over time I've decided it's just really not something I can explain in a paragraph or two without doing more harm than good (but I'll give 2 paragraphs anyway). As I kinda alluded to in the video, mostly this stuff is just a function of getting better at poker. The better you play the better feel you'll have for when to mess with people, and when not to. For when to value bet 3rd pair, and when to check a much stronger hand. Like I said there is a reason few can pull off the maniac in HSNL successfully.
With that said, when in doubt focus on front door aggression. By that I mean more "typical" and less expensive forms of aggression, usually on earlier streets. These include: raising PF, c-betting the flop, 3 betting, and to a lesser extent c/r flops, and double barreling turns. Back door aggression is the more expensive stuff: triple barreling, c/r turns and rivers, stuff like that which is more expensive when you mess up. Nevertheless, backdoor aggression is key against thinking opponents-I can't tell you how many dudes I play with that I don't even need to consider anything else about the hand because they are a lock to have it when they show this type of aggression.
I just wanted to point out that many people don't have access to super deep NLH games. I am playing on the East Coast and even the 5/10 games are capped(between 100 and 200bb depending on where). I hope you keep this in mind for future videos:)
why should we ???
Just want to provide a dissenting opinion here. There is a multitude of info available on beating 100-150bb games on this site and others. Please don't repeat this.
Granted, 1000bb deep games don't happen that often so maybe avoid extreme cases, but 200-300bb is pretty common and there are a lot of strategic implications that come with these stack sizes. Even 400-500bb effective stacks should come up occasionally in a 200bb cap game.
IMO confining to shorter stack sizes negates a huge amount of the value of your coaching by bringing you outside the realm you specialize in. I imagine a huge amount of your profit comes from deep stack situations and your overarching strategy is tailored to this. Furthermore, deep stack FR strategy isn't something you can get just anywhere.
You dont need to be balanced in Live poker trust me... Maximally exploitative play is the way to go.
Not entirely true...
why should we ???
Well get into all that in a future video. But in general, the eaiser it is to pick up on something, the more balanced we need to be. For example always cbetting the flop 1/2 pot w/ air and pot with the nuts would be pretty bad against all but the worst of players. But not having a balanced c/r river range against many players is probably fine/optimal.
Thanks for the input MoManies. And yes, you are correct in that a ton of money is to be made off people making critical errors while playing super deep. Plus, the deeper the game, the more skill/strategy. And that is way more fun to discuss in videos anyway. I'll try my best to make everyone happy to some degree in future videos.
good intro, when does the next video come out?
Mid April??? Still booked up 100% with survivor interviews? I thought you already hit just about every possible media outlet. :)
Gonna be making 8 videos throughout the year, so probably gonna keep them spaced out pretty evenly. And I will be more than happy to never do another Survivor interview again, believe that!
Recently, I've moved up to 10/20.
Throughout past couple months, for me 3betting a linear range vs a capable opponent has actually made the hand easier to play.
At times my KJo will be dominated when called. But I think card domination is little overrated, what do you think? And what do think of my recent strategy of making small 2.5x 3bets vs regular opens?
I'm still not sure if it's right to do so. I'm obviously doing this IP and against looser OK regs instead of nits.
They almost always call pre cause it's cheap, but I only get about 30-40% folds to my cbet.
At times, I just give up and hate myself for burning unnecessary $ when I could've just flatted pre and play a smaller pot.
Or I double barrel and when their tanking, I'm killin myself inside thinking "what have I done? How'd I get myself into this spot? Do I have to fire river too or give up and leave my babies out there
For every answer it usually is "it depends"
But some nutshell general comments would be nice.
Oh ya, it does feel great when I flop gin and get paid off from having an annoying image. But I do put myself in stressful spots, which is part of poker but I hate it..
a) playing way too loose PF
b) playing way too tight postflop (especially on turns and rivers) and
c) 3 betting a lot being great for the image I wish to portray in a general sense
In any situation where I think I'm putting the money in good, I want to be putting as much of it in the pot as possible. Yes, on the other hand, the bigger you make it the more likely they are to fold (not what we want given our 3B range). So I like 3-3.25X in position.
I def see the merits of making it smaller, but it just doesn't fit into my overall gameplan as well. For example, against certain players or at certain times, I 3B a hand that I much prefer a fold against. When I make it 2.5X, it's hard to accomplish that. Further, I think making it that small makes your hand a bit more transparent aka it's very likely you are 3B a value hand of some sort. Also people always think I'm FOS and even though they are highly unlikely to call me all the way down, they think by calling pre and c/f the flop they are sending a message of some sort. Either that or GAMBOLLL or something.
I will be the first to admit that what I wrote above is highly debatable and could just be a result of me HATING the 50BB stacks who play pretty well post and just 2.5X 3B their top 15% of hands against me, destroying my life. Whether that line is even most profitable for them as they shut out the 3-6 truly terrible players at the table is another topic entirely...
Sry about the post. Not sure what happened. Posting from phone
Not a problem
Great Video Garrett, Getting excited about live NL again. Looking Forward to your future content.
just got on this site would love to see lots of live play as that's what most of us americans play
Ask and you shall receive, that is what all of my videos will focus on :)
When should we expect your next video? Will your frequency always be this low?
Hi revigres,
Garrett's next video will be up in the next week or two. You should expect a new video from him approximately every 6 weeks.
Thanks!
I vote for more. It seems like more and more live players are joining this site (which I have mixed feelings about). But if we all speak up, maybe we can get more frequent content from Garrett and/or bring in additional live poker specialists to make videos.
Very good video; Just an advice(dunno if it's been already said):
You might cut out on the "you know"'s.
One question: do you take notes?(on your phone maybe). If yes, any details on how to make them as simple and readable as possible?
Papen, maybe you should read the comments before posting advice.
Great video!
Great,
can we get more live poker related videos
Agree / live-type soft sites, which is how Sauce recommends building a bankroll
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