How did you set up the custom spot? Are you pulling from monkersolver ranges and using vision to browse? How did you get the stacks and positions to populate?
Yes, I'm just saving the ranges from the sim and dropping them into Vision. If you go to Practice and select Custom in Vision, you can build the whole spot yourself.
Min 24: Do you think is sensitive/reasonable to implement a 2 size strat on this turn? One would be Potsize, and other 1/3 or 1/4 size, where u polarize to the nuts and best blocker bluffs w big one, and then merge a bit more on the small, where u thin vbet more even non flush hands like sets and A9,(esp if the have a h blocker), and some of the the crappier bluffs which u'll give up if called, but just enough to get some eq denial to STD's, bad 2 pairs(96, 93). Then to protect the smaller size u put in there some nutted hands such as AKhh or some Khhh(basically hands that block some of the calling range from opp if u were to bet big with it but not enough were it would be better to slowplay), and then your X range will include weaker flushes that make better river bcatches, marginal made hands,natural checks and the give ups, and the rare slow play that blocks everything and want to let him catch up.
This way you get the benefit of having big sizing without the downside of having to reduce your betting frequency so much but at the same time having a reasonable XB range to not get to the point where u over barrel this turn.
Hopefully my explanation is not too confusing and managed to get my point across clearly enough.
Very interesting series, I have always been interested in this comparisons between "normal" stack and deep stack play and where are the main differences and nuances at. It would be great to do the same for 3b pots spots.
I think it's plausible to have a two sizing strategy in this spot and your way of constructing the ranges seems reasonable. I worry that:
A) It won't add much (or any) EV which is usually the case though I haven't explicitly tested it in this exact spot
B) It will make your life hard and you'll open yourself up to attack by thinking players
C) It's not very natural on boards with this range vs range distribution. When the ranges at the top of the distribution are symmetric, but we have a large edge in the middle of the distribution, we often want to bet smaller to play in the middle of the ranges. I fear big bets forces us to battle where we're not stronger, which usually isn't a good idea. Of course two reasonable sizes can't be worse than one, but I think it would be a lot of work for virtually no reward.
Ah okay, good catch. So my comments refer to a board pair. On this flushing turn, our range vs range distribution is polarized which is a different story. I've studied this spot what two sizings in HU and the 2nd size didn't add much, however in 6 max 200bb, that clear polarity asymmetry is noticeable and could justify a two sizing approach. I also think static turns are probably the easiest to try and execute a two sizing strategy on because not much changes on the river. Good catch!
Based on the distribution, I'm starting to think that a big bet could be better due to our polarity. The one issue is the blocker and chop effects on 4 straight boards. I worry that a pot bet might not allow us to bet that often which will allow OOP to realize a lot of equity. It seems reasonable though.
Thanks for explanation. 2 follow up questions:
A)Sometimes I forget about the more str8 fwd things, good point, no need to overcomplicate things.
B) If the strat i mentioned was the case, how would you best attack it? if a robot implemented that stragey perfectly, do u think it still would be more vulnerable to being attacked than 1 size only strat?
C) I didnt think that deep about point C which I think it is a very good point. So to clarify myself, in order to keep things as simple as possible(w/o dropping too much EV), but as efficient as possible, one should always focus on what is the most relevant part of the ranges in play(i.e , most represented handclasses), in what part of the distribution is the greatest advg at(or lack thereof), and tailor bet size and bet frequency according to that as a rough baseline before looking further in detail into other factors, such exact hand, blockers, equity hand vs range and vs hand, dynamics, etc in order to make the best strategical decisions?
On a sidenote; the "cleaner the graph" the simpler the strategy?. Ex: Clear polarly distributed ranges = 1 big size at lower freq. IF the graph is all over the place w peaks and valleys overlapping, that might mean that implementing various sizings depending on what parts of the ranges distribution you wanna focus on may be better and so on so forth?
Am I understanding correctly?
Two well selected sizes are better than one in robot land, but I wouldn't say either is "vulnerable". The two sizing strategy just captures a bit more EV.
Yeah often knowing where we have an edge tells us how we should size. Obviously it's a bit oversimplified, but if you have a nut edge and you aren't dumping in big bets, you're not fully leveraging it.
Regarding the Side Note: When the two strategies mimic each other, then it's probably meaningless to have two sizes and hands aren't really achieving something new by being in each sizing.
20:12 - 963tt 6x board 200bb deep. BTN now doesn't have a polarity advantage (bc deep BB slowplays more flops with sets+96 I guess). BTN has a BIG mid-range advantage. Doesn't this mean that choosing a smaller size like B33 is better? Which would lead to an increase in turn double barrel frequency I guess??? :)
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Pretty interesting to see some 200 BB stuff. Would watch more.
Cool, thanks for your interest. I've got the BB Defense vs double barrel locked and loaded.
Really liked this look into turn rng building. It would be great if you would turn this into a series. Thanks.
How did you set up the custom spot? Are you pulling from monkersolver ranges and using vision to browse? How did you get the stacks and positions to populate?
Yes, I'm just saving the ranges from the sim and dropping them into Vision. If you go to Practice and select Custom in Vision, you can build the whole spot yourself.
Min 24: Do you think is sensitive/reasonable to implement a 2 size strat on this turn? One would be Potsize, and other 1/3 or 1/4 size, where u polarize to the nuts and best blocker bluffs w big one, and then merge a bit more on the small, where u thin vbet more even non flush hands like sets and A9,(esp if the have a h blocker), and some of the the crappier bluffs which u'll give up if called, but just enough to get some eq denial to STD's, bad 2 pairs(96, 93). Then to protect the smaller size u put in there some nutted hands such as AKhh or some Khhh(basically hands that block some of the calling range from opp if u were to bet big with it but not enough were it would be better to slowplay), and then your X range will include weaker flushes that make better river bcatches, marginal made hands,natural checks and the give ups, and the rare slow play that blocks everything and want to let him catch up.
This way you get the benefit of having big sizing without the downside of having to reduce your betting frequency so much but at the same time having a reasonable XB range to not get to the point where u over barrel this turn.
Hopefully my explanation is not too confusing and managed to get my point across clearly enough.
Very interesting series, I have always been interested in this comparisons between "normal" stack and deep stack play and where are the main differences and nuances at. It would be great to do the same for 3b pots spots.
I think it's plausible to have a two sizing strategy in this spot and your way of constructing the ranges seems reasonable. I worry that:
A) It won't add much (or any) EV which is usually the case though I haven't explicitly tested it in this exact spot
B) It will make your life hard and you'll open yourself up to attack by thinking players
C) It's not very natural on boards with this range vs range distribution. When the ranges at the top of the distribution are symmetric, but we have a large edge in the middle of the distribution, we often want to bet smaller to play in the middle of the ranges. I fear big bets forces us to battle where we're not stronger, which usually isn't a good idea. Of course two reasonable sizes can't be worse than one, but I think it would be a lot of work for virtually no reward.
Cory Mikesell - reading your answer C) I think you are talking about the 6x turn and samuelazo is talking about the Ah turn.....right?
Ah okay, good catch. So my comments refer to a board pair. On this flushing turn, our range vs range distribution is polarized which is a different story. I've studied this spot what two sizings in HU and the 2nd size didn't add much, however in 6 max 200bb, that clear polarity asymmetry is noticeable and could justify a two sizing approach. I also think static turns are probably the easiest to try and execute a two sizing strategy on because not much changes on the river. Good catch!
On the last board, do u ever use a pot size turn barrel on such dynamic board? only b50 or perhaps both sizes?
Based on the distribution, I'm starting to think that a big bet could be better due to our polarity. The one issue is the blocker and chop effects on 4 straight boards. I worry that a pot bet might not allow us to bet that often which will allow OOP to realize a lot of equity. It seems reasonable though.
Thanks for explanation. 2 follow up questions:
A)Sometimes I forget about the more str8 fwd things, good point, no need to overcomplicate things.
B) If the strat i mentioned was the case, how would you best attack it? if a robot implemented that stragey perfectly, do u think it still would be more vulnerable to being attacked than 1 size only strat?
C) I didnt think that deep about point C which I think it is a very good point. So to clarify myself, in order to keep things as simple as possible(w/o dropping too much EV), but as efficient as possible, one should always focus on what is the most relevant part of the ranges in play(i.e , most represented handclasses), in what part of the distribution is the greatest advg at(or lack thereof), and tailor bet size and bet frequency according to that as a rough baseline before looking further in detail into other factors, such exact hand, blockers, equity hand vs range and vs hand, dynamics, etc in order to make the best strategical decisions?
On a sidenote; the "cleaner the graph" the simpler the strategy?. Ex: Clear polarly distributed ranges = 1 big size at lower freq. IF the graph is all over the place w peaks and valleys overlapping, that might mean that implementing various sizings depending on what parts of the ranges distribution you wanna focus on may be better and so on so forth?
Am I understanding correctly?
Two well selected sizes are better than one in robot land, but I wouldn't say either is "vulnerable". The two sizing strategy just captures a bit more EV.
Yeah often knowing where we have an edge tells us how we should size. Obviously it's a bit oversimplified, but if you have a nut edge and you aren't dumping in big bets, you're not fully leveraging it.
Regarding the Side Note: When the two strategies mimic each other, then it's probably meaningless to have two sizes and hands aren't really achieving something new by being in each sizing.
20:12 - 963tt 6x board 200bb deep. BTN now doesn't have a polarity advantage (bc deep BB slowplays more flops with sets+96 I guess). BTN has a BIG mid-range advantage. Doesn't this mean that choosing a smaller size like B33 is better? Which would lead to an increase in turn double barrel frequency I guess??? :)
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