Big O Nuances and HH Review
Posted by Zachary Freeman
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you said at around 25:00
"obviusly ,if we are favorite to betting range, we can stack off , no matter what"
Is that really always true?
I'm thinking like, since he can still fold when we shove, that we need to be ahead of his stacking off range (according to pot odds). Lets say he can bet some bluffs. We are doing really good against bluffs, but shouldn't we disclude his folding range when calculating equity?
Thanks,
I did't find the time stamp, but at some point I said that when he is potting the flop leaving an SPR of 1 he is never folding to a jam. This isn't a read on this player; it should nearly always be this way. The flop has a FD, and a LD; in Big O he likely should not and wont be betting a hand with under 33% equity vs a jamming range.
So my comment was under the context that he is never folding to a jam.
Cool Video!
I played a decent amount of plo8 and a tiny bit of big O and for me the hardest transition to make is when to semibluff your nutlow only hands in bigO, since in regular PLO8 I feel like you often just have to semibluff when you are not folding against a bet anyway (obviously a little oversimplified but I hope you get my point). So if you make another video for this game I would be interested in seeing some semibluffing spots.
In the first hand betting our hand seems to me the far more obvious choice for me, since we are correctly never folding against button anyway and the BB has a very wide range and we are deep with him. Button gets in somee tough spots with hands like AQQ34, AQJ25, AQJT8 and similar ones, and BB just cant really be x/r us that much. It obviously really sucks when he does and puts as in an ugly spot and I wouldnt really know what to do in that case, but our turn playability is pretty bad anyway and if BB x/c he is propably auto checking alsmost any turn what is very good for us.
Thanks Jae,
I dont agree with the above statement which is actaully the main reason I dont agree with below
Think in terms of Phil's recent Death of EV video. If you haven't watched it it sounds like a subject that would be very beneficial to you.
In response to the first quoted statement, yes we will want to semi bluff NLD more but its not because we aren't folding to a bet when we check. Rather its because the frequency somebody flopped a duplicate NLD is much lower thus the cost of semi bluffing a duplicate NLD vs another NLD with stronger High will hurt us less.
In response to the 2nd quoted statement, this goes into the Death of EV subject again. Our equity against villains betting range will be different than our equity vs his calling range accordingly just because we will stack off vs both we likely prefer stacking off vs his betting range. His calling range will be mostly strong hands and will not include the weaker draws and marginal hands he pots once checked to. Likewise there are hands that he would call off yet not bet which is an additional plus (semi naked NLD).
Lastly I disagree that turn playability is poor for our hand. I think it is actually very high.We have a hand with no SD on flop yet has tons of outs to improve all reasons that delaying decisions to the turn is beneficial.
Lastly, we really arent pushing any equity vs a calling range of either. Our FE would have to be very high in order for a bet to be best. And once the flop checks through we can always capitalize on some of that FE on the turn.
I hope you don't take the response as harsh, I just happen to disagree with your statements yet I am thankful for them.
The two statements you quoted a meant seperate from each other and I dont really see them having anything to do with each other. Nevertheless I propably did not express what I wanted to say in a really understandable way so I will try to do it with a very common plo8 example:
We raise HJ 3bb with A24K only Button calls, eff. stacks are like 90bb. Flop comes 874cc, we dont have any clubs. What do we do? We have the nut low hand but pretty crappy high potential. X/c does not seem like an attractive option at all since we only really improve our hand on non club K or 4, but we wouldnt really want to be folding any turns or rivers except for maybe A or 2 and even on those not happily. X/r seems very suicidal and x/f seems out of question. In situations like that it makes the most sense to me to just barrel away most runouts and maximise FE. Ofcourse we get 3 quardered quite regularly for our whole stack but if we are not folding our hand at some point that is going to happen anyway if villain has nutlow and any decent high. For bigO the same situation with lets say A24KJ seems very different to me though since we get 3 quardered a lot more often. I was not trying to say that for most poker situations betting is always the superiour play if you are not folding against a bet, that would of course be a very silly statement.
For the AJ953 hand I really dont see us having great turn playability at all since our hand has very few ways to make the nuts but on the other hand doesnt really want to fold any turns against one bet. If turn comes a low heart for example and BB bets into us we are in not as good of a spot as it first looks like since we cant really raise for value but Bu could still jam some nutlow hands that dont have a lot with them and x behind flop. If turn comes a board pairing card and BB bets into us we are propably supposed to fold but we definitely will fold away a lot of equity in a case like that. Except for the turned 8 and maybe the 4 we never really have a nice spot if BB bets so I would want to prevent him from betting turn and I think a flop bet accomplishes that very well plus it puts Bu in a tough spot with almost all hands he is not betting himself.
And yes we do not push any equtiy against calling ranges but our equities against calling, against checking ranges if we decide to check and against folding ranges arent actually that different from each other since we have a non nutty drawing hand in all directions but no SD.
I am understanding both of your posts; I just disagree with your approach and standpoint on these situations. You state that x/f is out of the question, yet I think the optimal line is x/f just barely followed by x/c. If our hand was AKJ2!c it would be an easy choice to x/f given the pair of 4's adds quite a bit of equity. This does not mean taht we won't be betting naked NL hands but we will reserve to bet with hands that contain blockers to their calling range namely, Ac.
What you aren't appreciating is that a large portion of our HJ PFR range is going to contain A2. Accordingly we very often have better than AK24!c on 874cc. Additionally for IP player to bet he is betting into a range that contains a lot of A2 and A3 combos so his range is going to have to be strong. It will contain mostly NFD, 44+, and NL+pair or draw. We are behind that range and will be facing pot sized bets. If we opted to x/c we do some quartering ourselves on a 4 or K turn. We can also call a bet on board pairs like a 7 or 8 given we now quarter NL+FD or other draw. We have turns we clearly fold on such as any non K, 4 club or straight completing cards and A or 2.
If we chose to xc xc xc. and face pot size bets, we need 48% equity to make the call down. We just won't have that much by a bit even if we play turns and rivers well.
Re read the bolded portion. This is just not an acceptable option. Why would we opt to take a line that yields us losing half our stack "quite regularly" when we have the option to lose 0 and x/f with a outcome of neutral at worst? In fact checking doesn't have an ev of 0. When flop goes x,x which will happen often we can eliminate most A2 combos from his range and will have a plus ev showdown by mixing betting, x/calling and checking down. Additionally realize that we will have to give up on barreling any time the turn or river is a A or 2 (25%).
This first image is the most informational. It shows that his betting range contains A2 .91/1.79= 51% frequency. When he holds A2, we get quartered on river 1402933/(1402933+567671)= 71% frequency. Thus the overall frequency we get quartered is .51x.71 = 36% ie we lose half our stack 36% of the time when we either call down or barrel 3 streets. While we quarter him only .29*.51=15% frequency.
Notice here that we have significantly lower EV with AK24!c vs his betting range than we usually have when holding A2
Notice here that 34% of the time we have A2 in our PF range. The majority of the time we will have a much better fit with the flop. Add in the times we hit for high quite well but hold A3 and we have many better hands to continue with.
I hope this post helps see checking all these situations we've discussed is favorable compared to betting.
Good video, Zach.
Logic behind action in hand examples is explained very well.
More O8 videos would`ve been great.
Big O is becoming popular where I live. Its mostly a hold em town, and you would think PLO would be the second game, but Big O actually runs with some consistency. More O8 vids please Zach! Very much appreciated!
I am wondering your thoughts on smaller pre flop raises such as 2x instead of pot, and smaller flop and turn bets such as 1/2 or 3/5 as standard in order to increase river play? In my mind this allows higher skill players a greater edge and lower variance unless people are sticking money in way behind often.
I think smaller PF sizes are fine but in general if people call to widely with bad hands punish them maximally.
How are you mapping out the percentages for every turn card left in the deck?
timestamp? been a long time.
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