$500 Zoom: Folding the Nutflush?
Posted by Sauce123
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The insta muck of Ac2c at 1:15 surprised me a bit so I PIO'd and that hand is indeed the 0EV call and mixes 65% call (in my sim at least). What made it such an insta-muck for you?
Do you think it's more likely that people bet too high a frequency on that board (I have it 65% check) which would lead to a weaker range? Or they bet too high a frequency but put too many flushes into that range. Would that lead you to attack the X back range?
I think it's more that the bluffs are fairly hard to find here. They'll need to add a fairly large number of hands without spades to make my call winning.
Hey Ben,
Earlier in the video you open K8s UTG and get 3Bet by the sb to 10bb and snap muck while 202BB deep effective in pos. Understand a bunch of reasons for folding here but just wanted your thoughts on it. Wouldn't you say you are deep enough to play a pot in pos here?
Later in the vid you open A7s UTG (4handed) and get 3Bet to 9.8 BB by Ba.Angelov around 202bb effective again and you more or less snap muck w no commentary. Is A7s vs a very capable opponent worth considering a 4Bet bluff and or continue in pos this deep? Confused because a little later you open KQo UTG and get 3Bet by BB to 8.7BB and you consider calling/ potentially 4betting but elect to fold. Understand that 3Bet from bb usually means a stronger holding but just curious on why the consideration here but virtually no thoughts on the other 2 hands I mentioned?
I don't mean this question as a fanboy, I'm sincerely curious if you believe someone like Tom Dwan would fold these hands in these spots and if they are just losing plays long term?
Sincerly,
A more or less losing player who's opinions are relatively useless here :)
Hi Poopy,
These are good spots to look closely at.
So, just to zoom out a bit, we want to maintain some kind of equilibrium by continuing a roughly appropriate share of our range; say 40%-60% depending on sizing.
You're correct these suited hands increase in EV as we get deeper.
The A7s is in fact a continue and mix 4b deep, so I messed that up, and angelov is pretty aggro so I prefer continue exploitatively.
The K8s is just too far down in our UTG range, it's like a bottom 20% hand in that range.
The KQo is also a bit too far down and offsuit hands play particularly poorly to this line.
Hi Ben, left table 25' , you say the 542b is excellent for OOP. How often do you like defending pre with 22-55 at this stack depth (and deeper more specifically), and do you think a competent opponent should adjust his Flop strategy by being a bit more careful on his big bets choices ?
I think we're always defending pairs deep.
This board is quite a bit better for IP deep. OOP should bet fairly infrequently here, 25-55% or so depending on sizing choices.
My hand is actually a fold vs this sizing but it's very close; I don't mind continuing.
Hi Ben, I have a question about the 8s7x hand at ~19mins, I don't usually put 7x in my checking back range there so I was wondering if you could elaborate abit into what goes on into the process of which 7x to check back there. Thanks
I think we're checking back a small fraction of 7x, say 10-20%. This is for overbet defense mostly and to keep the river equilibrium in line. As far as best 7x to check behind it looks to be mostly K7 because a bunch of Kx is folding to a turn bet but calls on blank rivers. I thought 8s7x might be nice because my 8s blocks the subset of combo draws that XR bluff turn, and so when the turn goes B/R I'll be looking at a range of mostly dominating trips and air which isn't necessarily the best result. Overall I think just playing pure bet with 7x here is fine and then checking back some decent Qx to protect.
At 21 minutes with AQ you mention the spade as a bad blocker, but I actually think it's quite a good one, OOP wants to unblock your bdfd floats from flop that you decided not to bluff and will be folding on river which will be spades so OOP has a preference for bluffing diamonds or clubs here. Aside from that I think there is a tendency for some regs to find enough bluffs in these spots but be a touch too tentative with their value range and so a call ends up making a fair few chips against certain players.
With the 88 hand around the 30 minute mark, something I've seen when you have a pocket pair like this is you tend to dislike call for the reasons you said, you disproportionately unblock the bluffs relative to the value hands. However this sort of hand tends to really like shoving because as a result of unblocking a lot of their thinner value you unblock a lot of bet/folds whilst of course blocking a lot of the straights that will obviously bet/call which starts to outweigh the fact that you block some of their bluffs so I tend to see this hand class just playing very little call and then I just mix it between shove and fold.
At 33 with the A4dd I was thinking this is quite a good hand to fold better and get called by worse, you can get folds from AT-AQ, A8-A6ss, 2x, 33-44, 5x whilst getting called by Kxdd and because of the specific texture with no pair + fd combos there's a fairly demanding frequency that the BB needs to hit with their 5x and even stuff like AQ that there's a chance they may get lazy with. Don't hate the check behind by any means but I just tend to see that people shy away from pure bluff catching the turn and like to weight their calling range towards equity driven hands which this sort of hand class very effectively punishes.
@21: Fair points. It's looking like around 0 at equilibrium. My thinking was that most of their bluffs are coming from highcards- KJ-KQo, suited broadways and so on. I block a subset of that with my Qs. Plus, I tend to think people underbluff this spot, but less so SB vs BU.
@30: I think we want to be raising mostly with cards that match our value region. We're raising straights on turn and we just don't have many. Seems like our value range is mostly Q9/QQ/Qxs/99 and so we mostly want to be bluffraising random 9x combos; 98/87/T9 and stuff. Given the small potsize straights just aren't a huge part of either range, though we both do have T8o here.
@33- I agree. We look at this hand more closely next video and while check turn is actually fairly high frequency optimally, I think it just does better as a bet exploitatively.
lmao
"I know, beting aces...so 2007" looolololololl
13 min T#1 Co 2.25 & hero 3B BB 14bb. Probably the first coach I've seen use over a 6x sizing that is not a squeeze. Against players that use this type of sizing what type of range are you looking to 4 bet with and to what sizing?
What kind of sample are you looking for before you stop bluff catching as much? You said running bad over a small sample and have a hard time figuring out peoples bluffing frequency when you are running bad. How many hands before you adjust to folding some of the TPGK bluff catchers?
Timing Tell at 38min mark is pretty reliable. Not sure about the 3/4 sizing on the turn, but I agree with the timing tell.
@13, the point of the larger 3b sizing is to make 4betting more awkward for IP. They can use around a 28bb 4b sizing and it should be fairly polar. Also fine to shove some AK and some pocketpairs and a few bluffs.
Eh, I need a pretty big sample to stop bluffcatching anything that's >= 0EV at equilibrium. I'll tweak my mixes up and down depending on my feeling for the spot and player.
Hi Ben Sulsky
Because of your recent talk about downswings in this video I went back and found your graph from a video you made a year ago. Wanted to know if you can share your results over the past year for 500z and what type of adjustments you are making? Here is the video you made a year ago "Who are the best 500z players" How big of a downswing stretch is this "small sample?" In this old video you mention the pool under bluffs a ton. Then a year later, still mention the pool always seems to have it despite your elite blockers. Given not much seemed to change over a year, in terms of regulars bluffing frequency at what point do you plan on changing your strategy?
I know you mentioned this above, but not quite sure it's a big enough adjustment if still having the same problem from a year ago? I do not mean any disrespect by this post either. You can see how naive my comments were a year ago regarding this topic over your small sample in terms of adjusting your strategy.
yeah your post last year was definitely a bit out of line, but this one seems much more fair and reasonable (though you probably burned some bridges between yourself and Ben by your original comments, hence the lack of a response).
i will give my 2 cents on what you mentioned though. basically, Ben only ever plays 500z when he makes a training video (or wants to find out his WR over a slightly larger sample size last year). the fact that he has made millions over the course of his career kinda means is it worthwhile putting in the time and effort to increase your 500z win rate by a couple bb/100 when you are perhaps playing only 50k hands per year? i am sure he is playing high stakes PLO/8 game etc and looking after his baby, instead of checking population tendencies for the 500z pool. grinding 500z is not his source of income.
so basically the take aways from watching Bens videos are how to play a somewhat GTO/balanced style of poker, but that if we have built up data/reads on our opponents then we can implement them (which is something Ben cannot do due to lack of sample size) and increase our WR.
where as on the other hand, i have played close to a million hands of 500z, so i know most of my opponents pretty well at this point.
Demondoink there was a response on my notifications something like "insert video description here." But nothing when I click on the notification. I guess Ben's answer is the video description?
Im just opposite side where I make adjustments over small samples. Ill make a note with three ??? and if I remove all 3 marks, then that is enough for me to adjust.
RunItTw1ce ah okay fair enough, not really sure what is going on i can only speculate haha.
with regards to your adjustments over a smaller sample size that seems very reasonable. as you are playing lower stakes than Ben then your opponents will usually be deviating more from equilibrium, so adjusting to exploit this is much more important in increasing your win rate. though, like you alluded to, i think you should definitely be adjusting to the 500z pool as well, just perhaps not the extent you would at 50nl/100nl. not saying you are playing these stakes i have no idea what you are grinding, but just giving an example.
@14:45 i can dodge bullets, baby!
i agree with the comments about Angelov, probably one of the better/tougher opponents to play vs in the pool. i've played a bit with him at 5/10 recently, so he is moving up (i think he only appeared at 500z some time last year). so i'm sure he will be playing 10/20+ by the end of the year.
love the format
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