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Overcompensating EV Sacrifices: Practical Application At $500 Zoom

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Overcompensating EV Sacrifices: Practical Application At $500 Zoom

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Sauce123

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Overcompensating EV Sacrifices: Practical Application At $500 Zoom

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Sauce123

POSTED Mar 12, 2021

Ben Sulsky aka Sauce123 follows up his latest theory video, examining the concept of willingly sacrificing small amounts of EV, by putting those ideas into practice in the $500 zoom streets.

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Sauce123 4 years ago

Yeah I got in a lot of tough spots this video but it isn't as punty as it looks

Sauce123 4 years ago

A4 depends on assumptions IIRC, but I think my conclusion was that flop XR is a little bit bad and rest of hand is probably OK.

Gary Chappell 4 years ago

Hi Sauce, nice video. I found one thing interesting -> you mention a lot in your videos about the rake structure of 500z and therefore how making 0EV marginal preflop calls isn't great, but then you defend hands like A4o vCO 2.5x which is -EV as far I'm aware (against an aggressive player in Gabi too). Just wondered what your thoughts are here and whether it's just a case of balancing your postflop edge with adjusting to rake?

Sauce123 4 years ago

You're correct, I have this mixed rake free and an easy fold with 500z rake. I'm definitely quite sloppy on my preflop mechanics atm due to not playing very much.

RunItTw1ce 4 years ago

Respect for posting a losing video. I see maybe 1 out of 10 NL videos where coach actually loses.

Some of the BB defense seems questionable with 98o vs MP.

With the board being dynamic but hero having range advantage I thought this spot would be better as a bet flop and evaluate. Hero has all sets, 2 pairs, and strong Kx advantage. Are you just range checking in general here? What hands are you looking to bet this flop with 3 way given this formation?

Worm 4 years ago

Agree with your analysis regarding C betting. Sauce checks range in multi way pots as PFR.

Also will second your props for posting a video where every decision we make seems to be incorrect vs opponents actual hand. We've all had these type of sessions many times and they can be extremely tilting and cause one to question their game/strategy, so it's good to see even the best experience this from time to time.

Sauce123 4 years ago

I think there's very little cbetting with medium strength hands like this that don't have some blockers are backdoor potential. The CO cbetting freq on this texture is going to be very low as well.

RunItTw1ce 4 years ago

After hearing you say this half pot sizing would get a lot of regular to call, I started to mix more half pot sizes into my game. You are 100% right on this! The pool just hates folding against half pot sizing and I'm getting called by all kinds of craps and some very odd floats! People floating T7s oop on AJ5r 3way for whatever reason! Definitely need to use more half pot sizing in the future.

Jeff_ 4 years ago

24 min T7 886 Q7f -- would you bluff off this river if it is checked to you? and it seems like if betting too many of those on the flop/turn, kinda overbluffing :/ Considering anything with a club should prefer to bet over this one

Sauce123 4 years ago

This is actually quite an interesting exploit spot for IP. OOP is supposed to lead this river around 30% of the time. OOP bluffs some very strong hands here; I'm seeing TT-JJ with a high frequency. If OOP finds these bluffs, then 7x has 0EV in the XX line, and gets promoted to an elite bluff. OOP is also folding 6x on turn. If, instead, OOP plays some XC with 6x and doesn't find the river leads, then it seems like we'll checkdown more EV and should bluff with J9 and more air. Overall, I'm not sure how OOP is playing this spot, my guess is that the leads do not get found often enough. NH by my opponent to find the lead !

sauloCosta10 4 years ago

25:48 with the AA on multiway pot, you talk about the snap check behind ott from the CO (who is a regular - and a friend of mine coincidentally) and you use that data point as (seemingly to me, at least) one of the primary ones for your decision to bet (along with the rec tendencies on the SB).

My question is: how much weight do you tend to put on timing reads? As someone who has played for so many years, I would expect you to have a very accurate intuition for what timings mean and how effectively you can use them, so I'm very curious to hear about how relevant the timing info is for you, and how much you are willing to deviate from your approximation of theory based on that.

For someone who has never payed way too much attention on that, and also as someone who really prefers to have solid data instead of relying on assumptions that could just be innacurate projections, I struggle to use clear timing tells as enough evidence to shift my strategy. Do you think thats a big mistake? Is it possible to say that our projections regarding timing tells will be accurate more often than not (since its likely regulars behave very similarly when it comes to timing their actions)?

Sauce123 4 years ago

I know some top players who pay a ton of attention to timing and gameflow type of stuff. It's definitely a thing, particularly at higher stakes and when you're not playing tons of volume so that it's possible to focus very intensely. It's not usually a good use of attention because you must concentrate constantly to look at each timing your opponent makes relative to what they must be thinking at the node and then get inside their head to infer what parts of their range are more likely given timing. Timing is most useful in spots where there's a lot of pressure and our opponent's focus might crack as they're overwhelmed by emotion or processing of other information. For example, suppose it's a complex river spot where their range must balance a checking region and betting region and after tanking a long time on the turn they snap check the river-- that's probably a spot you can discount a slowplay and increase your betting frequency.

This stuff is particularly important in some forms of poker I've played a lot of. An example is high stakes hu mixed games, where typically one table is played. In limit, there are so many nodes you're making quick decisions at that it's very tempting to not balance your timing. However, against a great player this will allow them to gain a pretty big edge.

There's also a part of this that's hard to define analytically. Sometimes if you just concentrate very hard on trying to figure out what your opponent has, you'll occasionally get intuitions of varying strength about what they probably have. You then have to balance these intuitions with the GTO nature of the node you're at, and see if you have a good combo to make a low risk deviation with. Sometimes you don't even know what they have, you just know what they're going to do with it. The other day a regular got in a spot that's complex to figure out river sizing with, and then did almost no tank at all and bet a medium sizing (which looked fishy to me). I kind of got the idea that they were busy and didn't know quite how to play the spot and just bet the size their hand wanted, so I raise bluffed, figuring they'd end up overfolding, and say to themselves "I probably balance this sizing with plenty of good continues," when in fact they don't.

I do think overall poker has gone a little too far towards the "passively execute GTO strategy" side of things and too far away from "go crush your opponent" side of things. Often when everyone is focusing on GTO side it's a good time to first master the GTO side and then spend your time doing things that aren't on their radar.

Obviously the problem with this approach is that if you get reliably out of line one way or another (consistently overfolding, overbluffing, overcalling etc) then it becomes easy to counterplay.

RunItTw1ce 4 years ago

For example, suppose it's a complex river spot where their range must balance a checking region and betting region and after tanking a long time on the turn they snap check the river-- that's probably a spot you can discount a slowplay and increase your betting frequency.

This tell has a big impact on river decisions when a flush completes or obvious straight completes. When opponent snap checks river hero is able to value bet a bit more thin rather than checking back. When opponent thinks a bit and checks, can assume villain was thinking about donk betting river, XR, or maybe just busy with something else. Timing tells & live reads (sizing tells) at low stakes as well as live games play a pretty big impact long run, at least 5-10% online and would say at least 15-20% in live games. Great insight into this Ben Sulsky

Demondoink 4 years ago

Hey Ben, nice video, albeit not one in which your ran particularly well in.

I watched both of your latest two videos a couple of days ago, so can't recall exactly what specific video you reference it in, but i believe it was the previous one. regardless, you mentioned how you enjoy c betting small to force your opponent in to check raising more often, and thus playing turns on the flop xr, turn x node. this is of course not an easy one to play as OOP, as most of our raising range is somewhat polarised, meaning it is very easy to over fold when we take this line (we probably will be over folding slightly here, even at equilibrium though, as some of our complete air flop xr are gonna be -EV bets, not picking up any additional equity, and are too weak to x call).

however, you didn't mention the pro's for using a larger c betting strategy some of which include- forcing your opponent in to unnatural folds, such as second and third pairs, especially on boards such as Axx that they will never make vs a smaller bet. forcing your opponent in to unnatural defends on disconnected boards such as T72 with hands such as KQo vs large sizings, hands that appear to be easy continues vs small bets, but less so vs larger ones. forcing your opponent to play turns with all of their pre flop calling range, and balancing both a turn probing range, but also a x/call and x/raise range vs delayed cbets.

imo i would say that it is quite a lot more difficult for the OOP player to play the vs the latter strategy of big bet or x, albeit for different reasons than the former one.

of course as the IP player, like you highlighted, we make no mistakes by c betting range otf, but most players are pretty used to playing vs a high frequency c betting strategy (albeit still not executing it extremely well) but less so vs large IP cbets, as this is more of a thing that has been introduced by regs in the past 6 months to a year. so even if we make some mistakes on the flop which we would not make by adopting the range c bet for small sizing, our opponent is likely to make even larger mistakes across all three streets by playing vs a strategy that he has to defend many more nodes vs (the x call range, the x raise bet/bet range, the x raise x call line, the probe line, the x raise vs delayed c bet line and the x call vs delayed cbet line). also he is gonna face a higher frequency of river jams on the bet/bet/bet line as our range is tightened up once we exclude some of the medium strength/air hands from our c bet range, so he has to be knowledgeable in the call down threshold hands as well as this will be happening more often.

Sauce123 4 years ago

Yea fair points.

I have also noticed the rake sims tend to favor less flop cbetting as the big blind defending ranges are tightened up a lot; this makes bigger lower frequency bets stronger at equilibrium on most boards.

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