scout12312 years, 2 months agomin 36: table 3 : k10cc hand. Do u have a check calling range there as well, and do u have a cbetting range. Cos when u start check raising , I mean u need to worry about ur betting range in those spots and ur check calling range, it seems to me that having all 3 is going to be hard to balanced effectively. So is that a texture that u in general like to ch r or ch c , or do u just randomly make these moves based on ur hand?
min 36. table 4 U flat j9cc to a mp open, is this a std flat for u? arent u worried about having too weak of a flatting range and being dominated too much and sqzed on too much for this to be a standard flat. How low would u go as far as suited connectors go? How do u treat hands like Ajo KQo KJo A10o in the same situation. Also would u flat those weaker suited broadways in mp as well ?
Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months agoKTcc hand: I have little to no history with TheTurk. Which means that I can basically do whatever I want the first few times without worrying about balancing any kind of line. This texture in general is not a board that I want to barrel bluff very often in a vacuum (what this is). I could see myself barrelling it as a bluff once my opponents starts floating it alot, but realise that it's a 3 way pot so its less likely that he'll be floating. I definitely favor C/Cing or C/Ring on this board rather than barrelling.
J9cc hand: This is definitely the weakest part of my range, especially cuz its an MP open. TBH, its a little loose. I think the lowests SC you should play in this spot would be 89s. And even then, these are going to play very weakly. The good news is (and the reason I do it) is that SCs are rare, and will represent a smaller part of your range. You're IP, meaning you can peel more cards (what SCs need to make their big hands), make more moves, control the pot and put pressure on your opponent.
There is generally alot of concern about balancing - this is perfect example of how to balance your range pre flop, so that your opponent always has to worry that you may have hands like this. You can have this, you can rep this, etc... It makes you harder to play against, and opens up your options of what you can do/rep in these spots. We might even be losing small amounts of money in the long run with these hands themselves, but as long as its small, its definitely worth it. The shear fact that your opponent will (in the back of their head) have to fear these hands, and that at the same time (which is contradictory) allow you to make hands that are harder to see, makes you tougher to play against, and will perhaps have your other pre-flop holdings show a bigger profit over the long run.
scout12312 years, 2 months agomin 38 table 3: k10o BvB u 3b k10o . And ur planning to fold to a 4bet, my question is why do u wanna 3b a hand like k10o which is defiinitely a profitable flat ip vs his sb stealing range.Wouldnt u prefer 3btting hands that were a bit weaker and then hands that u can 5b jam better and maybe even flat to a 4b IP?
Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months agoI'm folding to a 4bet unless I am up against an out of control 4better, and I'm feeling frisky one time...
I want to 3bet KTo so that I can have a quality hand in a 3bet pot. I will also flat KTo in that spot as well. Its very weak for a 3bet value range, and pretty strong for a flatting range (probly near the top of our range).
I do 3bet hands that are weaker, like 85s and stuff. But you can't rationalize 5bet jamming those at any time, your equity is just sooo bad when you get called (between 15-40%, at best).
I think what you are referring to is polarizing your 3bet range, absolute garbage hands that you fold to a 4bet and never feel bad (85s) and hands that you jam all day over 4bets, or I guess flat the 4bet sometimes (JJ, AK, etc...). I have a merged 3bet range in a lot of spots which causes me to fold a decent quality hand like KTo to a 4bet. Alot of ppl think this is a massive waste of those hands, so they opt for polarized ranges instead...I don't feel that way...
scout12312 years, 2 months ago49.52 table 5: I remember in a previous video u had been saying that players dont just jam over raises in 3b pots anymore, but alot of the time are going to be clickin it back, or calling rather than jamming. I mite be mistaking obviously, Im not 100% sure it was u. That being said wouldnt u like just making it 150 or so to his raise and be able to cib bluff in that same spot in future without having to risk ur entire stack.
I like your idea of making it 150$/call, I actually think its better and like you said it creates a spot that opens up options for us in the future. Its also gives our opponent the option (although rare) to spew into us with just 2 overs because he might perceive the play as bluffy.
scout12312 years, 2 months agoAlso what do u think about his move, I find it really questionnable by him to raise calll it off with 9 high.
Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months agoI think its fine. You need to fight back in 3bet pots somehow and this is a good way to do it. Furthermore an easier line to balance (he can make more plays by min-raising). We are playing HU so I'm not going to have a big pair very often. If this was FR or 6max, I'd think that it's not a great play. But cuz both of our 3bet ranges are weaker by virtual of it being HU, and that we both know that and get it in lighter (I'd imagine if he had A8, or 99, he might be doing the same thing). I think it's still a good play. I think that he will probably take this pot down right away on the flop, a lot in the long run, and that's about 1/5 of my stack that he's taking - a nice chunk.
That being said he can still call and play the hand differently, and I don't think that would be bad either if he plays it well on future streets.
scout12312 years, 2 months agoI wasnt necessarily saying we should 3b all junk, like i wouldnt feel uncomfortable 3btting kq aj for example, which I would feel more comfortable calling a 4b against or jamming. I would nt ever 5b jam 8high, since like u said it has terrible equity and it is absolutely unneccessary. I mean hands like 88+ aj+ kq+ some wheel aces (suited and offsuit) some suited junk .Wouldnt u feel like that sort of range is playable enough?
Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months agoYou mean, 88+, KQ+ and AJ+ and say A2s/o-A5s/o is PLAYABLE enough to 5bet jam or flat the 4bet IP? BvB only of course.
If so, yes I agree. But again, that range follows with the gameplan of having a polarized 3bet range (which it seems is your preference). You either fold to the 4bet with garbage, or play for stacks with a near premium hand, whether it be AIPF, or playing a 4bet pot IP. If you're going to jam wheel aces, make sure they're suited. The extra 3% equity and shear rareness of suited hands with keep your jamming range relatively strong, whereas if you had A2o-A5o, all of the sudden you have more garbage aces than AK/AQ combined! Your range will end up more heavily weighted towards junk...
I'm a little bit confused at what you want to do with your KQ/AJ. You don't feel comfortable 3betting them, but you feel more comfortable in calling a 4bet or jamming over it? (How would ever get there if you're not 3betting those hands?)
scout12312 years, 2 months agoI agree that he wants to be able to attack this sort of flop hu since ur going to be cbetting any pair and alot of ur air range with the intention to barrel alot of turns. That being said I really dont think he needs to have 97 in his raise calling range since there is plenty of 8x type of hands and maybe slowplayed overpairs and better hands he can play this way.I mean we do need some sort of calling range here on the flop.
P.S. I laugh my ass off every time when u mention a suited connector and how sexy it is, like almost if u had an emotional attachment to the hands, which u obviously dont once one reads ur responses in the thread here.:) Thanks for getting back so fast and in detail. GL and see u at the tables in 2013.
Hey one last more broad thing. Is 6max tougher than fullring, since I know u play both and Im thinking about adding the fullring tables to my volume, it just offers more games at 400 600.
Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months ago6max is tougher that FR for sure. I think the average 6max player has a deeper understanding of the game than a regular FRer. But FR brings an art to the game that 6max doesn't have. And 6maxers can get eaten alive (usually by playing too loose, and not respecting the frequency of monsters) if they don't show the proper respect when they move to FR.
You should know, that I started with FR, and switched/added 6max in about 15months ago, so I'm coming from the other side.
GL to u too. Take care.Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months agoAnd just luck that I got back to you so fast, but I will always respond in detail. Won't be back on for probably 5-7 days after today. I just got back on today after over a week so I was able to answer everything so quickly :)
scout12312 years, 2 months agoSorry I didnt explain myself very organized about the BvB 3b range. My plan isnt to jam most of that range allin, I would just 5b jam suited wheel aces if it was a good spot for it. I just wanted to say that I felt like that range of hands wasnt that polarized at least ddint feel like that, but I could be off obviously and it needs to have more combos of qjo k10o a10 type of hands.
Adrian Milroy12 years, 2 months agoYeah, that last bit of the range, QJo, KTo, ATo, etc. offsuit broadways that we don't want to go AI with really represents a big percentage (because of the offsuitedness), that when we see a flop can have nice value to it. So when you do the combo math, you'll see that those types of hands really unpolarize your range. Cheers!
Becks12 years, 2 months agoMin 20: You never talked about what BU had as you had Aces and just flatted pre. You were trying to go for a c/r on the River cause if he had anything that would call a bet, he would bet it himself and you could c/r for value plus he wouldnt believe you. If you had a Hand that didnt have SD value, maybe AJs? Would you rather bet this yourself on the River to maybe fold out AK or something like A3o that hit bottom pair on the River? My point is, do we need to think about playing value hands and bluffs the same way in this spot? Or does this spot come up to seldom? Or because you have no history with Villain you can play unbalanced?
Min 44: U call AQ vs. a UTG minraise. Is c/c not an option? Dont think he will barrel Turns that light and often check back. If he checks back Turn we can bet River and get 33-77 to fold. Or is our Range to face up in these Positions?
Min 44: the 84s Hand on the HU Table. Are there hands u are just calling vs. his raise? Like AA KK that dont have to fear the Overcards so much? Or should we be shoving(better 3betting as u agreed above) AA KK too?
Min 44: C/C is an option, but essentially we are floating OOP and our actual holding doesnt matter so much. The only things that AQ (hole cards) would actually contribute to this hand would be the fact that it's blocking 1/4 of AK combos (12 -> 9) and 1/2 of AA combos (6 -> 3), and if an A pops off on the turn, your opponent is more likely to continue bluffing. I feel like i may be double barrelled on dry K high flops in this situation due to the fact that UTG raisers like to rep their strong range and ol' important AK in this spot. On the other hand, maybe not... I can't even hero call twice because his bluffing range would be composed of alot of small PPs. Our range is rarely two slow played sets, AK/QK, floats and QQ- here (we may have KK here once in our life, lol). Combination-wise we are going to have alot of PPs under the K and floats compared to the actual time we've got AK (we might 3bet it some portion) or KQ that we can comfortably continue on the 2nd bet, and sets are so rare (and we would've had to just call them, very possible, but still another point that reduces the frequency of it). From experience, I feel that our opponent usually feels comfortable trying to fold out QQ- or worse with a turn barrel a lot. So yeah, our range can look pretty face up.
Min 44: There are definitely hands I'm calling vs his raise. That range would be weighted towards KK, AA, 2 pairs, and gutshot/airballs. Whether to shove or call your KK/AA on this board depends on your opponents tendencies. You need to know whether they make that raise as a bluff a lot, or more often to stack off. On this board, since its hard to rep anything as the 3bet caller, and in turn leads the 3better to jam light, I would assume that most opponents would be willing to stack off once they make this raise the majority of the time. On another note, if your opponent isn't gonna put any more money in, if they're bluffing, after their initial flop play, you might as well jam it in there right away. This prevents them from seeing 2 cards (assuming you check to them on turn) which in turn could beat you, or conversely, could get you to make more money on further streets. The type of opponent, and range of cards that you think opponent could do that with should factor into whether you should jam or call. I.E. if he's got KQ/KJ alot there, let him continue, if you think he does this with gutshots or btm pair, jam it.
In fact, I think instead of jamming, making a small 3bet on the flop would be better, as discussed earlier above.
48 minutes in to the vid, when you shove over a re-raise in a 3b pot, I think a small 3bet is a better option as it allows the villain to spew occasionally. Not that big of a difference probably, but I prefer a small 3b.
I agree that a small 3bet would be better than a ship in our 3bet pot. Look up in the comments, scout123 already suggested it. As he pointed out, it also creates a spot that could be balanced where we can have air, or can have a shipping hand there, which in turn will lead to more spewing on our opponents part hopefully.
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min 36. table 4 U flat j9cc to a mp open, is this a std flat for u? arent u worried about having too weak of a flatting range and being dominated too much and sqzed on too much for this to be a standard flat. How low would u go as far as suited connectors go?
How do u treat hands like Ajo KQo KJo A10o in the same situation. Also would u flat those weaker suited broadways in mp as well ?
I have little to no history with TheTurk. Which means that I can basically do whatever I want the first few times without worrying about balancing any kind of line. This texture in general is not a board that I want to barrel bluff very often in a vacuum (what this is). I could see myself barrelling it as a bluff once my opponents starts floating it alot, but realise that it's a 3 way pot so its less likely that he'll be floating. I definitely favor C/Cing or C/Ring on this board rather than barrelling.
J9cc hand:
This is definitely the weakest part of my range, especially cuz its an MP open. TBH, its a little loose. I think the lowests SC you should play in this spot would be 89s. And even then, these are going to play very weakly. The good news is (and the reason I do it) is that SCs are rare, and will represent a smaller part of your range. You're IP, meaning you can peel more cards (what SCs need to make their big hands), make more moves, control the pot and put pressure on your opponent.
There is generally alot of concern about balancing - this is perfect example of how to balance your range pre flop, so that your opponent always has to worry that you may have hands like this. You can have this, you can rep this, etc... It makes you harder to play against, and opens up your options of what you can do/rep in these spots. We might even be losing small amounts of money in the long run with these hands themselves, but as long as its small, its definitely worth it. The shear fact that your opponent will (in the back of their head) have to fear these hands, and that at the same time (which is contradictory) allow you to make hands that are harder to see, makes you tougher to play against, and will perhaps have your other pre-flop holdings show a bigger profit over the long run.
I want to 3bet KTo so that I can have a quality hand in a 3bet pot. I will also flat KTo in that spot as well. Its very weak for a 3bet value range, and pretty strong for a flatting range (probly near the top of our range).
I do 3bet hands that are weaker, like 85s and stuff. But you can't rationalize 5bet jamming those at any time, your equity is just sooo bad when you get called (between 15-40%, at best).
I think what you are referring to is polarizing your 3bet range, absolute garbage hands that you fold to a 4bet and never feel bad (85s) and hands that you jam all day over 4bets, or I guess flat the 4bet sometimes (JJ, AK, etc...). I have a merged 3bet range in a lot of spots which causes me to fold a decent quality hand like KTo to a 4bet. Alot of ppl think this is a massive waste of those hands, so they opt for polarized ranges instead...I don't feel that way...
I like your idea of making it 150$/call, I actually think its better and like you said it creates a spot that opens up options for us in the future. Its also gives our opponent the option (although rare) to spew into us with just 2 overs because he might perceive the play as bluffy.
That being said he can still call and play the hand differently, and I don't think that would be bad either if he plays it well on future streets.
If so, yes I agree. But again, that range follows with the gameplan of having a polarized 3bet range (which it seems is your preference). You either fold to the 4bet with garbage, or play for stacks with a near premium hand, whether it be AIPF, or playing a 4bet pot IP. If you're going to jam wheel aces, make sure they're suited. The extra 3% equity and shear rareness of suited hands with keep your jamming range relatively strong, whereas if you had A2o-A5o, all of the sudden you have more garbage aces than AK/AQ combined! Your range will end up more heavily weighted towards junk...
I'm a little bit confused at what you want to do with your KQ/AJ. You don't feel comfortable 3betting them, but you feel more comfortable in calling a 4bet or jamming over it? (How would ever get there if you're not 3betting those hands?)
P.S. I laugh my ass off every time when u mention a suited connector and how sexy it is, like almost if u had an emotional attachment to the hands, which u obviously dont once one reads ur responses in the thread here.:)
Thanks for getting back so fast and in detail. GL and see u at the tables in 2013.
Hey one last more broad thing. Is 6max tougher than fullring, since I know u play both and Im thinking about adding the fullring tables to my volume, it just offers more games at 400 600.
You should know, that I started with FR, and switched/added 6max in about 15months ago, so I'm coming from the other side.
GL to u too. Take care.
Min 44: U call AQ vs. a UTG minraise. Is c/c not an option? Dont think he will barrel Turns that light and often check back. If he checks back Turn we can bet River and get 33-77 to fold. Or is our Range to face up in these Positions?
Min 44: the 84s Hand on the HU Table. Are there hands u are just calling vs. his raise? Like AA KK that dont have to fear the Overcards so much? Or should we be shoving(better 3betting as u agreed above) AA KK too?
Min 20: He had AK, my bad. Said everything BUT his actual hand...
Min 44: C/C is an option, but essentially we are floating OOP and our actual holding doesnt matter so much. The only things that AQ (hole cards) would actually contribute to this hand would be the fact that it's blocking 1/4 of AK combos (12 -> 9) and 1/2 of AA combos (6 -> 3), and if an A pops off on the turn, your opponent is more likely to continue bluffing. I feel like i may be double barrelled on dry K high flops in this situation due to the fact that UTG raisers like to rep their strong range and ol' important AK in this spot. On the other hand, maybe not... I can't even hero call twice because his bluffing range would be composed of alot of small PPs. Our range is rarely two slow played sets, AK/QK, floats and QQ- here (we may have KK here once in our life, lol). Combination-wise we are going to have alot of PPs under the K and floats compared to the actual time we've got AK (we might 3bet it some portion) or KQ that we can comfortably continue on the 2nd bet, and sets are so rare (and we would've had to just call them, very possible, but still another point that reduces the frequency of it). From experience, I feel that our opponent usually feels comfortable trying to fold out QQ- or worse with a turn barrel a lot. So yeah, our range can look pretty face up.
Min 44: There are definitely hands I'm calling vs his raise. That range would be weighted towards KK, AA, 2 pairs, and gutshot/airballs. Whether to shove or call your KK/AA on this board depends on your opponents tendencies. You need to know whether they make that raise as a bluff a lot, or more often to stack off. On this board, since its hard to rep anything as the 3bet caller, and in turn leads the 3better to jam light, I would assume that most opponents would be willing to stack off once they make this raise the majority of the time. On another note, if your opponent isn't gonna put any more money in, if they're bluffing, after their initial flop play, you might as well jam it in there right away. This prevents them from seeing 2 cards (assuming you check to them on turn) which in turn could beat you, or conversely, could get you to make more money on further streets. The type of opponent, and range of cards that you think opponent could do that with should factor into whether you should jam or call. I.E. if he's got KQ/KJ alot there, let him continue, if you think he does this with gutshots or btm pair, jam it.
In fact, I think instead of jamming, making a small 3bet on the flop would be better, as discussed earlier above.
48 minutes in to the vid, when you shove over a re-raise in a 3b pot, I think a small 3bet is a better option as it allows the villain to spew occasionally. Not that big of a difference probably, but I prefer a small 3b.
I agree that a small 3bet would be better than a ship in our 3bet pot. Look up in the comments, scout123 already suggested it. As he pointed out, it also creates a spot that could be balanced where we can have air, or can have a shipping hand there, which in turn will lead to more spewing on our opponents part hopefully.
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