Mid Stakes FRNL Hand Review (2 of 3)
Posted by Adrian Milroy
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I guess I'm wondering what range you think they should be putting you on when you shove the turn. To me it looks like you shouldn't have a value hand OR a bluff on the turn...
The only time I could see myself shoving this turn as a bluff, is if the 2 PF callers were both super laggy sticky players, that I felt were liable to make a move on me on the flop (that's why they called pre in the first place), yet don't hold a monster in their hole cards to begin with. Since the pot is so bloated, the leverage point is a simple cbet, so their move would be to jam AI, which I might not necessarily want. I'd want to be the one getting there first, with tons of dead money out there, vs. a presumably weak betting range. This is the kinda thing that can only arise with a very strong history dynamic between players, kinda like our home games :)
So from my understanding, you don't expect to have a bluff here, but that you understand your opponents well enough to be a level ahead of them with your thinking. You see the spot in a deeper way than they do, and also understand how your opponents see it at the same time.
How often are you likely to limp hands like AK UTG? Obviously you like to mix things up, but I guess you also don't want 3-4 callers with such a hand?
When you limp a big hands like AA, or AK in EP, and it limps around, you need to remember that you have a one pair (most of the time) in a multiway limped pot. Stacking off (or putting a ton of money in) with AK on a A96fd flop, or AA on a 279fd flop is just not a good idea. Normally when you raise with AK for example (and therefore usually are HU or 3 way), you can just go ape shit on most A or K high flops, be incredibly aggressive and search for value. Since you are in a multiway limped pot, you just can't do this. It might seem frustrating to have your pre flop monsters playing almost defensively in multiway limped situation, but you have to adjust. On another note, you're going to have the biggest (one) pair, so there's still plenty of value in your hand.
So many live players love to limp these types of hands in EP, then self destruct in limped pots for 100-200BBs with one pair. This is literally the worse thing you can do. The psychology of having to fold these hands because you put yourself in this spot by limping can be mentally crushing and induce you to make undisciplined plays/calls. If you can't refrain from doing this, it'll be very dangerous to play these hands this way.
It is NOT a mistake to call 3bets OOP HU. But this isn't a HU hand, it's a multiway squeezed pot with an MP opener. This is not the time to do it, both the fact that it's a squeezed pot and that the players in the pot aren't restricted to being around the blinds. For example, if you're the CO and the BTN 3bets you, that's the best time to call 3bets OOP. In those situations, the pot doesn't get bloated as quickly and you're dealing with weaker ranges, so your marginal hands play better vs. that range.
Some players only 4bet or fold and rarely call 3bets OOP. It's not bad, they're just avoiding a difficult part of the game of NLHE. I feel like you're playing an abridged version of the game... It's a spot that is hard to deal with, and most players are prone to making mistakes in these spots. It's safe to avoid them (they aren't giant money making spots anyways), but if you ever want to get to the next level, you can't avoid this spot forever. I don't think it's a huge problem or massive leak in any way tho.
I think that calling is fine too, I just opted to ship here because I knew at least one player was going to call. And that a turn ship looks more bluffy then betting when checked to on the river. The benefit of calling would be that Takecare may continue by bluffing his entire stack, although unlikely when he gets 2 callers. In the end, the same result would've happened. Omyx would've shipped the river when checked to, I would've called, and Takecare would've folded.
in the KK hand you spent most of hand talking about how weak their ranges are given their capped etc, and then you shove the turn giving them a chance to fold. Wouldnt it be more profitable to call and play/get it in on rivers? not many hands are going to have the required equity to call the shove, your call is balanced by the times you 3bet hearts and checked back. does it look too strong? are hands like tt-AQ always calling a turn ship so you dont want to give them an opportunity to fold on scary rivers (i really cant think of any besides a heart (maybe at that))
I would also add that a benefit of shipping the turn, is to cut out a free card for your opponents heart draws (albeit unlikely) and straight draws (extremely rare). Any kind of heart combo draw will have to call it off on the turn due to the pot odds (we like getting people to call their stacks off at 20-30% equity), whereas they get to see a cheaper river (if we call the turn) and C/F on a brick when we are probably paying them off on a heart... They are getting value in the long run, and we are getting none (unless they bluff-ship the river which is unlikely cause the pot is 3way, and we are IP). For TT-AQ (our targeted stacking range), please read the above post.
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