Choosing Between Close Options: $5/$10 6-Max NLHE Review

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Choosing Between Close Options: $5/$10 6-Max NLHE Review

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Tyler Forrester

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Choosing Between Close Options: $5/$10 6-Max NLHE Review

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Tyler Forrester

POSTED Jul 16, 2018

Tyler Forrester aka Gogol's Nose goes over some $5/$10 hands from a recent Ignition session and talks about how to pick between options that are similar in EV and how anonymous tables impact those decisions.

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sauloCosta10 6 years, 8 months ago

Nice video Tyler, as always.

At 28:26 you talk about your float with T8o @ A75r BB vs BTN in a SRP. It's very interesting to me that you were honest enough to realize that, even though you could come up with an exploitative justification for your play, you actually genuinely believe that the motive was rather emotional, caused by recent losses in big pots. That's actually something Nick Howard has been talking about a lot recently, and it really got my attention.

From what I understand of his ideas, he believes that we should be avoiding making large investments in "grey zone" spots - spots where you can't make a good estimation of the EVs of the multiple strategic options in a given situation, for many different reasons - because those investments will have an impact on our mindset and most likely generate a negative effect on how we play future pots. And thats exactly what happened here to you in the ATdd hand @ 9:55, followed some time later for this T8o hand, where again you made an investment that can't be proved as +EV without specific circumstances. So the ATdd shove not only is an investment that you cannot prove to be good, but it also makes you play worse in the future.

I already knew that what Nick was saying was very powerful, because I trust him enough to assume that what he says is most likely true. However, witnessing it happening to a player like you, who has proved to be amongst the biggest winners in midstakes games, is even more eye opening.

What is your opinion on this "grey zone" investment concept I've just explained, considering the example from your video? Do you think the poker industry often pretends that technical ability is the only thing that matter for achiveing succes in poker? And how do you feel about developing a methodology that contemplates one's mindset as key a component for arriving at solutions for poker hands/decisions?

Thank you in advance

Demondoink 6 years, 8 months ago

amazing video. really enjoy the slower paced in-depth analysis on these seemingly innocuous spots-such as facing the bet on Axx- that suddenly turn in to sick, potentially high EV spots for us if we are conscious of how the population are playing.

that final hand with the K5 I agree that at equilibrium he should be mixing with hands such as AA/KK of course, but that river is the best card in the deck for our range. you x raised K5o, which is 16 combinations, so even if this is low frequency that's still a lot of combos. then we have our A5 which are mixing call/fold, our 65,75,85s,95s,T5s etc. so we have more than 50 combinations of 5x that are potential flop x raises, and yeah you mentioned a couple of combinations such as Q7hh/Q7ss/Q2cc etc but

1-these are all suited combos so they are much less frequent
2-they will have to give up a lot on the turn as they block IP floats (such as 2 overs with bdfd) and don't really turn well unless they hit a FD. and even that FD is gonna end up dominated a bunch as 98cc type hands are always bet folding and AKcc type hands are bet folding 0% of the time and always calling vs the xr. so with the Q7cc type hands they play much poorer ott and thus we are gonna have to either barrel with little equity or x fold.

so when we arrive on this river we end up with a disproportionate number of 5x hands, and some random air hands, like the aforementioned Q2cc, but even if IP is over folding a bunch, when he calls he is gonna select hands to call with that unblock FD's so these hands aren't even particularly amazing to bluff with. for example QQ no c. you did name a couple of combos for bluffs, but, being honest, it was far harder to come up with these Q7ss type hands than the 5x flop x raises.

so sure, our Q7ss type hands should be printing on this river, but we need to come up with 33% bluffs and I feel like this is practically impossible on this run out unless we are a bot. so I think IP can just exploit us and only call boats, and then our river jams with worse than a boat are now -EV.

in game I would strongly consider blocking, because that allows us to have a much lower frequency of bluffs in our range, which we definitely have, and get more value from over pairs which can exploit our under-bluffing by folding vs jams always on rivers such as a 2 or a 7, and mix at MDF frequencies on brick rivers such as a T. and even with our bluffs such as Q7ss, we should still be making money as all of his FD's still have to fold, and almost all of them are better than Q high.

Tyler Forrester 6 years, 8 months ago

Thanks DemonDoInk!

I agree. I think you've made a strong argument that we need some combos of surprising air in our range on this type of run out to make overfolding from in position less profitable and we definitely need to going allin with hand like A2o and K2o.

As side note, if he always folds to a jam, he should always fold to the small bet too (this doesn't happen often in practice). Essentially we would always bet our air all-in (gain the pot) and bet our value small (gain pot + some EV from mdf defense), which is of course greater than always folding.

Demondoink 6 years, 8 months ago

haha yeah that's a good point actually. we wouldn't gain the entire pot with our air though because he will still have some boat combos. but yeah, that strategy would make perfect sense.

hmmm really interesting. not sure if I could pull the trigger on a river range split that included 0% value and the other 0% bluffs, but that should probably be the strategy on this board run out vs the way the current population plays.

Everyday 6 years, 8 months ago

Ultimately jamming the river on a T is something i need to do,
because 24$ ultimately still buys several meals at MC Donalds.

Made my day :D

TexasFoldUmmm 6 years, 8 months ago

Great video. You would have a range equity advantage at 13:06 with the A6o on that board texture nonetheless, wouldn't you? Love seeing +BigMac plays out of you.

TexasFoldUmmm 6 years, 8 months ago

Because you have all the AA, KK, AK; etc? Polarizing bet sizes aren't the trend anymore with nut advantage as much, are they? I'm trying to learn this stuff. Feel like I'm in Cal 2 again. LOL.

Tyler Forrester 6 years, 8 months ago

It's so muddy, because 3-way doesn't have the same equilibrium properties as headsup. The minimum defense frequencies for each player are lower and the average hand strength to bet 3-times is stronger. I don't think I'll be able to get 3-streets with worse than AA here, so the only hands that I have that are 3-barrels which my opponents don't is AA and KK. This leads me to the conclusion that I need to be more careful auto-betting the flop, because I am OOP and don't really have a 3-street betting advantage.

Had0uken 6 years, 8 months ago

Hi Tyler, great video again.

At the start of the video you talk about constructing a GTO xb range including Q9 in the bvb spot on QJ6r. Do you have any advice for constructing xb ranges in these spots compared to just betting our stronger top pairs for value? I feel like when checked to here bvb Q9 would always fall into our flop blockering range but I’m unsure of how I should be constructing my checking range here IP.

Cheers

Tyler Forrester 6 years, 8 months ago

Hi Had0uken,

Great question! Essentially against an aggressive GTO player we need to be checking back a wide range of hands including top pairs and even two pair here. However, (and this is a big however), most (all) players don't do good job of max-exploiting the lack of balance in our check-back ranges, so it's likely that GTO strategy differs significantly from player-pool max-exploit in this situation.

The conclusion I would draw is that it is important to have some hands that can call two barrels in your check back range, it's probably not that valuable to have hands that can value bet 3-streets to be checked back. As to Q9, it's very close between betting for 3-streets of value and 2-streets, so this would be near the top of my check back range. I wouldn't think too much about blockers with 9, because a lot of draws including the 9 would be put in the flop betting range.

4mollusks 6 years, 1 month ago

Hey Tyler,

Great video. At 32:00, you ch/ra the K5o on 344r. Can you give us examples of other hands we should be ch/ra this flop with that aren't open ended straight draws? Are you ch/ra hands such as T7o T7s (with the bdfd) J7o Q6o etc that can turn gutshots? Thanks

Tyler Forrester 6 years, 1 month ago

Yes, you definitely could checkraise those types of hands here. Even though T7o might be profitable to checkraise, I know that T7s is more profitable, so I should choose T7s before T7o. The best way to think about this is to order the hands that you might want to checkraise and then choose the hands with the highest value first until you feel like you have enough bluffs to play an equal strategy or have chosen all the profitable bluffs.

4mollusks 6 years, 1 month ago

Thanks, last question about this 344r hand. At 32:00, let's say we ch/ra flop with 67 and the villain calls. If the turn and river brick out (let's say turn is a 9 and riv is a 10, rainbow board), are we firing turn and riv with every 67 combo in our range? If so, whats our sizing? In these spots after ch/ra flop, I'm unsure how to proceed with all of our oesd and gutshot straight draws on the turn and riv when we brick. If we are triple barreling all of our combos, are we overbluffing? Do we double barrel some combos and give up river? Thanks Tyler!

Tyler Forrester 6 years, 1 month ago

Depends quite a bit on your range composition, the idea in GTO is to make hands in our opponents range worse than some hand negative to call. We do this by betting more bluffs on the flop than on turn than on the river (mathematics of poker dives into the math of this in detail). The two easy takeaways are when we bluff the river, we want to have bluffs in our range that make AA 0 EV to call. And on the turn we pretend our value range is our entire river betting (including bluffs) range. We then add enough bluffs on the turn to make calling AA on the turn to the bet 0 EV.

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