In the last hand of the vid would/could u make that same river shove against a complete unknown. Say you've been at a table for 30mins and have no HUD in note ect on the guy. Loved the vide thx form the great info. :)
Even though hes v nitty, im still not entirely convinced its too thin as we rep J9 and QQ ourselves pretty poorly as the latter might 3b and the former folds flop so he might look us up if he can hand read well.
I mean bluffing otr with 10x is not something we should always be doing but it's certainly an option. Assuming he v bets those hands you listed it's definately plus ev, but nits often just go for nitty c/c lines with strong tp hands otr so it's hard to accurately gauge without further reads.
In this exact spot (considering bet sizing, positions etc), I would probably shove any flush here. If you have a nittier image, and want to be on the side of caution, shoving 89cc+ or possibly better wouldnt be a bad strategy.
Regarding the 22 hand (around min 27), what would your 3betting range look like (assuming you had one) when he X/R this particular turn card? Also, you mention that he would overshove the river with a set of tens but isn't it a bit too thin? If you were to 3bet your nutted hands on the turn (4 combos of 98s), the only worse hand that would call his overbet would be a set of sevens (which is essentially the same as a set of twos)...
I really dont have much of 3b range ott, but I suppose if I did it would most likely be 89 as we can stack a set or get him to semi bluff draws, and I could have some bluffs with a blocker. Agreed TT is very thin for overbet, but it would be the absolute bottom of his value range, and it's the sort of spot where he might think we will level ourselves into calling light.
i don't get why you evaluate his range to be heavy ott with many hands that have picked up lots of equity (straight & flush draws), and then you just call. only reason to just call is if you think all his bluffs barrel off otr, but you stated that when you just call your range looks like a strong made hand (which would imply he only barrels when he hits). so wouldn't the best exploitative play be 3b turn? I mean, it doesn't really matter to me that you "don't have a 3b range ott", just because you currently don't have that in your game doesn't mean its not correct to do it.
This is one of the best videos I've seen here. Really insightful. Every SS Stars reg know who pontylad is at 2+2 forum so nice to see some of his hands and commentaries finally.
last hand seems spew to me, i like x/f better and maybe x/c and x/r are both close although both seem unappealing, because with x/r A3dd you block the hands you are trying to fold out and you don't block any clubs/lower sets...hands that would bet/call
Having an Ace isnt ideal, but given positions, he can have almost any 2 pair on this board (a fair few that dont include an Ace), which we are targeting to fold out. I think because we rep a flush so well (and few hands that that turn into a bluff), theres a decent chance he folds JJ, 55 here too.
^^ adding on to that, you guys are projecting your thought process onto the villain saying things like, "I would play JXcc like this, maybe 24cc, any KXcc", do you find that making plays based on what you assume your perceived range is, is +EV? I generally don't give my opponents credit for understanding my ranges in depth unless we have significant history.
for example, I know several opponents that would snap call this river x/r with the reasoning that they would expect me to have x/r otf or ott with clubs unless it was exactly JXcc, however, if you are different than me and you know that you personally get to river by x/c, x/c with many XXcc combos...do you then take that logic and assume that villain knows that you would play clubs this way? (which would make the bluff more credible)
Yeah its true, and its very much a grey area because we will never truly know what the other person assumes about our range no matter how good or bad they are. I think against most regs you just have to assume they have a similar understanding about ranges and what you rep in certain spots, but you can never be too sure.
Its an interesting point, and I would certainly play AA the same till the river, but on a K I think I would opt to flat. On a complete brick I think I would shove.
i don't think the TT jam is that bad. i think it's pretty close. you never know what people will call you with until you give them a chance. why do you think he would fold 33/66? you need to bluff more!
jamming 99 doesn't make any sense to me. what better hands are we folding out? if he's played AA like a mong, he's probably not gonna fold.
He probably wouldn't fold 66, he might fold 33 - but this gives us very few worse value combos for him to call us with. I do agree that he might just end up calling with a hand like AQ, but a nit like this might well take a c/c line with top pair/op hands because they dont want to be shoved on so its hard to say.
Yeah I mean the main problem with the shove is that we are really only getting him to fold AA or AK that hes played like a mong, otherwise we are better off calling.
In the last hand(where you bluffraise tpnk), maybe you shouldn't have flushes in your range as calling the turn oop with a FD is probably -EV (excluding JxXx and the low combodraws).
Although, you seem pretty confident that the reverse is true.
I think given positions, calling the turn oop with a bunch of fds (a lot of combos which have straight draws, pairs, K high etc as well), are strong enough that we can call here.
Thanks for the video. I don't incorporate bluff raising rivers enough in my game, so its nice to see some spots where you do and the reasoning behind them. I play mostly live 1/2 and getting people to fold MP,TP, or overpairs is impossible...even when I obviously have the nuts, so bluff raising rivers to balance my range is not a huge concern. I do occasionally pick bluff spots against better thinking players or weak NITs, but have had mixed results. I am assuming these spots shouldn't come up very frequently, but should be in my tool kit. Especially against regs I play alot, simply to have a bluff possible in my polarized range.
I really don't like that shove OTR with 99. Villain has shown multiple signs that he doesn't know what he is doing so I would not expect him to fold AA ever.
But great video, I really liked it.
Samu Patronen11 years agoAnd A3s hands: Our hand pretty bad for bluffraising in this spot because we block a lot of hands that we're trying to fold out, isn't it?
99: I agree, the hand in general is a bit of a weird one. With absolutely no blockers to anything, and as you say, getting a player to fold AA who seems rather braindead makes our play too ambitious.
A3s: Having an Ace isnt ideal, but given positions, he can have almost any 2 pair on this board (a fair few that dont include an Ace), which we are targeting to fold out. I think because we rep a flush so well (and few hands that that turn into a bluff), theres a decent chance he folds JJ, 55 here too.
Last A3s hand: Why do we have more clubs in our range than spades? (it was said in the video couple of times)? Also, do you always play your club draws on this board this way? What do you think about raising turn there?
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I did watch almost every FR-Vid from every training site out there.
I have to say, that yours are one of the best.
Therefore they deserve a better resolution and picture quality in general. :)
Your contents are great! I have one suggestion like Gandalf. Can you make a better resolution and picture quality next time?
Great vid - cools hands you guys explained it well. The reg on reg weirdness was really relevant. btw Ponty, Who's coats that jacket ? :p
Live in OZ now, Jackets.... where we're going we don't need Jackets!
In the last hand of the vid would/could u make that same river shove against a complete unknown. Say you've been at a table for 30mins and have no HUD in note ect on the guy. Loved the vide thx form the great info. :)
If you guys think jamming TT is too thin for value, are you always shoving Tx to get him off AA, KK, AQ, KQ, QJ, QT, 33...?
Even though hes v nitty, im still not entirely convinced its too thin as we rep J9 and QQ ourselves pretty poorly as the latter might 3b and the former folds flop so he might look us up if he can hand read well.
I mean bluffing otr with 10x is not something we should always be doing but it's certainly an option. Assuming he v bets those hands you listed it's definately plus ev, but nits often just go for nitty c/c lines with strong tp hands otr so it's hard to accurately gauge without further reads.
Last hand in the video, whats the worst flush you X-raise jam here? Are you X-raise jamming 9c8c?
In this exact spot (considering bet sizing, positions etc), I would probably shove any flush here. If you have a nittier image, and want to be on the side of caution, shoving 89cc+ or possibly better wouldnt be a bad strategy.
Regarding the 22 hand (around min 27), what would your 3betting range look like (assuming you had one) when he X/R this particular turn card? Also, you mention that he would overshove the river with a set of tens but isn't it a bit too thin? If you were to 3bet your nutted hands on the turn (4 combos of 98s), the only worse hand that would call his overbet would be a set of sevens (which is essentially the same as a set of twos)...
I really dont have much of 3b range ott, but I suppose if I did it would most likely be 89 as we can stack a set or get him to semi bluff draws, and I could have some bluffs with a blocker. Agreed TT is very thin for overbet, but it would be the absolute bottom of his value range, and it's the sort of spot where he might think we will level ourselves into calling light.
i don't get why you evaluate his range to be heavy ott with many hands that have picked up lots of equity (straight & flush draws), and then you just call. only reason to just call is if you think all his bluffs barrel off otr, but you stated that when you just call your range looks like a strong made hand (which would imply he only barrels when he hits). so wouldn't the best exploitative play be 3b turn? I mean, it doesn't really matter to me that you "don't have a 3b range ott", just because you currently don't have that in your game doesn't mean its not correct to do it.
This is one of the best videos I've seen here. Really insightful. Every SS Stars reg know who pontylad is at 2+2 forum so nice to see some of his hands and commentaries finally.
last hand seems spew to me, i like x/f better and maybe x/c and x/r are both close although both seem unappealing, because with x/r A3dd you block the hands you are trying to fold out and you don't block any clubs/lower sets...hands that would bet/call
Having an Ace isnt ideal, but given positions, he can have almost any 2 pair on this board (a fair few that dont include an Ace), which we are targeting to fold out. I think because we rep a flush so well (and few hands that that turn into a bluff), theres a decent chance he folds JJ, 55 here too.
^^ adding on to that, you guys are projecting your thought process onto the villain saying things like, "I would play JXcc like this, maybe 24cc, any KXcc", do you find that making plays based on what you assume your perceived range is, is +EV? I generally don't give my opponents credit for understanding my ranges in depth unless we have significant history.
for example, I know several opponents that would snap call this river x/r with the reasoning that they would expect me to have x/r otf or ott with clubs unless it was exactly JXcc, however, if you are different than me and you know that you personally get to river by x/c, x/c with many XXcc combos...do you then take that logic and assume that villain knows that you would play clubs this way? (which would make the bluff more credible)
Yeah its true, and its very much a grey area because we will never truly know what the other person assumes about our range no matter how good or bad they are. I think against most regs you just have to assume they have a similar understanding about ranges and what you rep in certain spots, but you can never be too sure.
In the 99 hand, you mention you are playing QQ-AA the same way. Are you jamming river for value with AA?
Its an interesting point, and I would certainly play AA the same till the river, but on a K I think I would opt to flat. On a complete brick I think I would shove.
Great video. The laughing blooper @6:30 was a highlight though. :)
Haha missed that one out, glad you enjoyed it!
Coin trying to make me look daft by keeping that part of the edit in! Thanks Simon!
i don't think the TT jam is that bad. i think it's pretty close. you never know what people will call you with until you give them a chance. why do you think he would fold 33/66? you need to bluff more!
jamming 99 doesn't make any sense to me. what better hands are we folding out? if he's played AA like a mong, he's probably not gonna fold.
He probably wouldn't fold 66, he might fold 33 - but this gives us very few worse value combos for him to call us with. I do agree that he might just end up calling with a hand like AQ, but a nit like this might well take a c/c line with top pair/op hands because they dont want to be shoved on so its hard to say.
Yeah I mean the main problem with the shove is that we are really only getting him to fold AA or AK that hes played like a mong, otherwise we are better off calling.
Better quality please!
In the last hand(where you bluffraise tpnk), maybe you shouldn't have flushes in your range as calling the turn oop with a FD is probably -EV (excluding JxXx and the low combodraws).
Although, you seem pretty confident that the reverse is true.
I think given positions, calling the turn oop with a bunch of fds (a lot of combos which have straight draws, pairs, K high etc as well), are strong enough that we can call here.
Thanks for the video. I don't incorporate bluff raising rivers enough in my game, so its nice to see some spots where you do and the reasoning behind them. I play mostly live 1/2 and getting people to fold MP,TP, or overpairs is impossible...even when I obviously have the nuts, so bluff raising rivers to balance my range is not a huge concern. I do occasionally pick bluff spots against better thinking players or weak NITs, but have had mixed results. I am assuming these spots shouldn't come up very frequently, but should be in my tool kit. Especially against regs I play alot, simply to have a bluff possible in my polarized range.
I really don't like that shove OTR with 99. Villain has shown multiple signs that he doesn't know what he is doing so I would not expect him to fold AA ever.
But great video, I really liked it.
Glad you enjoyed the video.
99: I agree, the hand in general is a bit of a weird one. With absolutely no blockers to anything, and as you say, getting a player to fold AA who seems rather braindead makes our play too ambitious.
A3s: Having an Ace isnt ideal, but given positions, he can have almost any 2 pair on this board (a fair few that dont include an Ace), which we are targeting to fold out. I think because we rep a flush so well (and few hands that that turn into a bluff), theres a decent chance he folds JJ, 55 here too.
Last A3s hand: Why do we have more clubs in our range than spades? (it was said in the video couple of times)? Also, do you always play your club draws on this board this way? What do you think about raising turn there?
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