What a wonderful vid. I'm ashamed to say that when I first saw the format I was disappointed thinking "we can't see any hole cards" but as soon as you started talking about ranges and the frequencies it became completely unimportant what they actually had. The few hands that went to SD I really didn't care by that point bc the hand had been so thoroughly analyzed that the actual cards were simply a small part of their overall range. The discussion of bet sizing was also so interesting. Thank you so much
I absolutely agree with So_Nitty's comment every word. It is amazing what a interesting dynamic this video developed with almost no showdowns and cards at all. Outstanding job Tyler.
Hi Tyler! Nice format! Are there any reasons why you don't play on PS nowadays? You can not beat the mid/hs fields on PS right now or just you feel playing on Ignition is more +EV for you? I hope I will see you back on PS instead of these small sites.
All the best!
"Can I beat the games?" will always be a question, since I live in the U.S. and most of the best players in the world play on PokerStars.
Essentially as a U.S. citizen to play on PokerStars, I need to either live in a 2nd or 3rd world country far from home, obtain citizenship in a 1st world country that allows gambling, or travel year round.
I have a family, so traveling year round isn't an option.
For me personally, it seems slightly silly to move to a 2nd world country to make more money.
I'm willing to pay (or make less money) to live in a country that is closer culturally to the U.S..
This leaves Canada. My wife and I seriously considered becoming Canadian citizens, but the hassle and expense seems to outweigh the benefits of the move. Becoming a Canadian citizen requires either starting a business in Canada or going to a Canadian university and then obtaining a Canadian work permit. Both methods require (rightfully) a multi-year commitment to Canada. Given the instability of poker, this commitment seemed to be -EV. In the last 3 years, PokerStars has continued to make changes that are detrimental to pros. I expect this trend to continue. I'd be making a multi-year commitment for a job that I think PokerStars prefers didn't exist. That is a tenuous proposition.
The downside of my decision is that I will always leave myself open to a criticism that I can't beat the games. I can't assure you that I can, because it's unknowable. What I can tell you is that I played on PokerStars for over 10 years (2005-2015) and amassed a little over $2,000,000 dollars of winnings at 2/4 through 5/10. I was the biggest winner at 2/4 in 2010 and 2011, the second biggest winner at mid-stakes in 2011, and the second biggest winner at 2/4 in 2009 according to PokerTableRatings (PTR), and the 5th biggest winner at mid-stakes in 2014 according to Russian PTR. I still work on my game regularly and spend the majority of my study time on equilibrium strategies. However, you can still make the somewhat farcical argument that one of the best players at mid-stakes over the last decade who still studies regularly is now a losing regular and I can't disprove it.
The next obvious criticism is "What bro, you know so much about high stakes, why aren't you playing it?" Surprisingly, the simple fact is that I don't want to play high-stakes. I don't like 10 $40K pots a year deciding my income. I've invested my money well and don't have much pressure to maximize my income. You, of course, can argue that you can't differentiate me from a losing high stakes player and this is true as well. However, I would note that, for obvious reasons, a winning high stakes player will not give you this level of analysis , which makes analysis from a player in my position the best you are going to get.
P.S. I don't think your post is intended this way but it comes across as "What bro, can't beat the games?". My suggestion for future posts is to not ask the coaches if they are losing players, you'll get better responses.
Thx for the answer Tyler! Best of luck in you carrier and in your life! You seems like a really nice person.I hope that PS will come back one day to the US and this will be great for all of us :)
at 18:25 and other spots why is it that when he bets pot on the T turn you say IP needs to call half of range? Isn't significantly higher than 1-a due to semi-bluff equity? Or is that Cindys range advantage is large enough that IP would have to overfold if Cindys bluffs were all 0 eq so we just approximate the defense freq back at 1-a once we consider his bluffs have equity?
Great point, I just checked my sims are you absolutely right. I have the Kh7s4sTd at 75% bet-size, in position player folds 33%. If this was a minimum defense spot, the player would fold 42%, so the extra equity is very important in the change of the calling frequency.
Apologies if this is incorrect and I find it interesting that the reasoning led to the right conclusion, but I am not sure that using semi bluff equity to change the 1-a frequency is the correct approach. In general I am not sure we should be aiming to make the semi bluffs 0 EV to bet. Consider a situation where someone is betting pot size with 65% nuts and 35% air. we have an always call situation. If we now make the 35% semibluffs with 20% equity we move to an always fold situation. So moving this variable on its own # semi bluffs vs # pure bluffs should probably make us less likely to call as all else being equal it increases the range advantage that the bettor has.
@26:00 prot0 vs limitless you forget to mention, that in BBvBTN spot this turn will create PvBC dynamic that makes prot0 want to have overbetting range, since he uses smaller sizing, we could probably guess that he splits his range into two bet sizings, smaller one for his weaker Ax, mixed in with some traps AA, etc. How does that affect his value range on this river?
@34:00 Linus vs prot0 you mention that trapping OTR with PSB left is not so important because you can just call your bluff-catchers(like AQ, AJ etc)? Could you elaborate more on the relationship of SPR OTR in this spot, and the strength of our checking range? Should Linus call optimally here?
Just adding to the pile, but count me in as another very happy viewer.
I was skeptical of the format, even after seeing some positive reviews. Pulling off such a great video without hole cards is really impressive. I'd be scared to try :)
Hi, thanks for the video Tyler, on the 997 on the turn when you said that the aggressor (3bet) must defend 24% to protect him from auto profit , are you just calculing this with standard formula Bet/Bet+Pot ? Or something more complicated that includes barrels frequency that protect x/f range too ?
Plugged the spot at 4:23 into PIO assuming a Snowie Preflop Strategy.
Proto's EV only drops $12 by using a 100% cbet strat for 1/3 pot. Would you try to use a mixed strategy in his shoes or go with the 100% strat for organizational/ simplification purposes?
I've noticed this effect as well on occasion. I think what's happening here is that the strategy space on the flop is very robust regarding betsize. To expand- we could build a strategy with most of the betting volume going to a variety of possible sizes without much EV penalty. I believe the algorithm can sometimes "struggle" to find the best possible size (because some combination of all the sizes is so close in EV), and it can take a very large number of iterations before the algo settles on the best size. It also might be the case that the algo settles on a strategy using multiple sizes that is very slightly worse than the best possible size, and it will never get to the best strat (for instance I've seen some cool stuff where if we nodelock a given situation then release the nodelock, the algo can't find its way back to GTO; to me this suggests the algo's ability to find GTO isn't perfect). If this is true, on occasion we can "see where the algo is going," and nodelock the best looking size and actually exceed Pio's EV by a very small amount (though again, I expect this might go away or be duplicated with a sufficiently large number of iterations).
PIO implements a form of gradient descent to calculate the Nash equilibriums. The method works like this.
Imagine we are standing on a hill-side covered in trees and we need to get to the nearest town. Towns are generally in a valley and near water. When we no longer can see our surroundings, one of the easy ways to get to the nearest town is to walk downhill. By walking down hill, we will eventually find the lowest point on our hillside and the stream babbling merrily down the hill. We can follow the stream, which flows downhill, until eventually we find a town. This method generally works, but sometimes we end walking down the wrong side of the mountain and the water either flows underground or into a freshwater lake with no exits. We would usually turn around and walk back up the hill. However gradient descent can only move downhill, so we become algorithmically stuck at this poor location.
Gradient descent is a process of walking downhill toward a local optimum (the town). However, sometimes we walk down the wrong side of the mountain and end up at suboptimal location that we can never get out because we can only walk downhill.
On your particular problem, it's more likely that you walked into the town from the left-side in your first sim and from the right-side of the town in your second. Remember that we never actually get to the exact center of town (Nash), we only get within the city limits.
Hi Tyler!!
Regarding to river bluffcacthing optimal frecuencies, I wonder what could be the best adjustments vs stations??? Could we just check back(ip) or XC (oop) some draws so our river range is stronger to punish that profile?
what is your overall adjutment vs people who are station?
txs
Reading through the comments, I’m sure you would crush these games! You’re one of the best coaches in rio and I love your videos.
Haha and moving to Canada just to play on pokerstars such of a hassle in Ontario were fenced in from the rest of pokerstars global.
There are some cool live places to play though like Playground in Montreal is arguably one of the best poker rooms around, and Alberta has some good card rooms as well. Tournament winnings here also aren’t taxed in Canada like they are in the US so that’s a benefit, but as well our dollar is shit. Lolol
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What a wonderful vid. I'm ashamed to say that when I first saw the format I was disappointed thinking "we can't see any hole cards" but as soon as you started talking about ranges and the frequencies it became completely unimportant what they actually had. The few hands that went to SD I really didn't care by that point bc the hand had been so thoroughly analyzed that the actual cards were simply a small part of their overall range. The discussion of bet sizing was also so interesting. Thank you so much
Thanks Nitty, I really appreciate the compliments!
I absolutely agree with So_Nitty's comment every word. It is amazing what a interesting dynamic this video developed with almost no showdowns and cards at all. Outstanding job Tyler.
Hey Tyler,
I like the concept but I feel like some simple PIO sims would be a good complement to your ideas of what you think the players are doing.
I really like that idea. My wife and I were talking over dinner last night about how I could better show the strategies.
Ha ha, this made me laugh. Mustn't it be great to be in a relationship with a poker player? :)
PIO +1
Nice format, keep doing that!
Thanks Kostanzhoglo, appreciate the comment!
Thank you Tyler for the new format!
Awesome, glad you are enjoyed the video!
It's like trying to understand a Picasso painting while listening to Van Gogh - it's alot more comprehensible now!
haha, I love being compared to mad genius. I'm thankful that I have managed to keep both my ears so far. :)
great vid!!!
Hi Tyler! Nice format! Are there any reasons why you don't play on PS nowadays? You can not beat the mid/hs fields on PS right now or just you feel playing on Ignition is more +EV for you? I hope I will see you back on PS instead of these small sites.
All the best!
"Can I beat the games?" will always be a question, since I live in the U.S. and most of the best players in the world play on PokerStars.
Essentially as a U.S. citizen to play on PokerStars, I need to either live in a 2nd or 3rd world country far from home, obtain citizenship in a 1st world country that allows gambling, or travel year round.
I have a family, so traveling year round isn't an option.
For me personally, it seems slightly silly to move to a 2nd world country to make more money.
I'm willing to pay (or make less money) to live in a country that is closer culturally to the U.S..
This leaves Canada. My wife and I seriously considered becoming Canadian citizens, but the hassle and expense seems to outweigh the benefits of the move. Becoming a Canadian citizen requires either starting a business in Canada or going to a Canadian university and then obtaining a Canadian work permit. Both methods require (rightfully) a multi-year commitment to Canada. Given the instability of poker, this commitment seemed to be -EV. In the last 3 years, PokerStars has continued to make changes that are detrimental to pros. I expect this trend to continue. I'd be making a multi-year commitment for a job that I think PokerStars prefers didn't exist. That is a tenuous proposition.
The downside of my decision is that I will always leave myself open to a criticism that I can't beat the games. I can't assure you that I can, because it's unknowable. What I can tell you is that I played on PokerStars for over 10 years (2005-2015) and amassed a little over $2,000,000 dollars of winnings at 2/4 through 5/10. I was the biggest winner at 2/4 in 2010 and 2011, the second biggest winner at mid-stakes in 2011, and the second biggest winner at 2/4 in 2009 according to PokerTableRatings (PTR), and the 5th biggest winner at mid-stakes in 2014 according to Russian PTR. I still work on my game regularly and spend the majority of my study time on equilibrium strategies. However, you can still make the somewhat farcical argument that one of the best players at mid-stakes over the last decade who still studies regularly is now a losing regular and I can't disprove it.
The next obvious criticism is "What bro, you know so much about high stakes, why aren't you playing it?" Surprisingly, the simple fact is that I don't want to play high-stakes. I don't like 10 $40K pots a year deciding my income. I've invested my money well and don't have much pressure to maximize my income. You, of course, can argue that you can't differentiate me from a losing high stakes player and this is true as well. However, I would note that, for obvious reasons, a winning high stakes player will not give you this level of analysis , which makes analysis from a player in my position the best you are going to get.
P.S. I don't think your post is intended this way but it comes across as "What bro, can't beat the games?". My suggestion for future posts is to not ask the coaches if they are losing players, you'll get better responses.
Thx for the answer Tyler! Best of luck in you carrier and in your life! You seems like a really nice person.I hope that PS will come back one day to the US and this will be great for all of us :)
Thanks TBE! I appreciate the kind words :)
This vid was AWESOME ! Would love to see more of this format.
Thanks a lot Tyler.
Thanks Kaytor, I appreciate the love!
Great vid and format, congratz!
Sweet, glad you liked it. Happy to have you on the team!
Great vid Tyler ! One of the best I've seen on the site
Would love for you to use the same format ! :)
Thanks Ben! Your comment made my day :)
Heh, as I was watching I was involuntarily thinking "I should copy this," which seems like one of the least fakeable sorts of compliment :)
at 18:25 and other spots why is it that when he bets pot on the T turn you say IP needs to call half of range? Isn't significantly higher than 1-a due to semi-bluff equity? Or is that Cindys range advantage is large enough that IP would have to overfold if Cindys bluffs were all 0 eq so we just approximate the defense freq back at 1-a once we consider his bluffs have equity?
Hi Zach,
Great point, I just checked my sims are you absolutely right. I have the Kh7s4sTd at 75% bet-size, in position player folds 33%. If this was a minimum defense spot, the player would fold 42%, so the extra equity is very important in the change of the calling frequency.
Apologies if this is incorrect and I find it interesting that the reasoning led to the right conclusion, but I am not sure that using semi bluff equity to change the 1-a frequency is the correct approach. In general I am not sure we should be aiming to make the semi bluffs 0 EV to bet. Consider a situation where someone is betting pot size with 65% nuts and 35% air. we have an always call situation. If we now make the 35% semibluffs with 20% equity we move to an always fold situation. So moving this variable on its own # semi bluffs vs # pure bluffs should probably make us less likely to call as all else being equal it increases the range advantage that the bettor has.
Excellent point. Holonomy, I agree.
Please do more videos like this. I'm actually very surprised there isn't more high stakes railbird type content here. TYTY
Awesome biznitch, stoked you liked it!
@26:00 prot0 vs limitless you forget to mention, that in BBvBTN spot this turn will create PvBC dynamic that makes prot0 want to have overbetting range, since he uses smaller sizing, we could probably guess that he splits his range into two bet sizings, smaller one for his weaker Ax, mixed in with some traps AA, etc. How does that affect his value range on this river?
@34:00 Linus vs prot0 you mention that trapping OTR with PSB left is not so important because you can just call your bluff-catchers(like AQ, AJ etc)? Could you elaborate more on the relationship of SPR OTR in this spot, and the strength of our checking range? Should Linus call optimally here?
Just adding to the pile, but count me in as another very happy viewer.
I was skeptical of the format, even after seeing some positive reviews. Pulling off such a great video without hole cards is really impressive. I'd be scared to try :)
Well done, Tyler!
Thanks Phil, really stoked you liked it!
Hi, thanks for the video Tyler, on the 997 on the turn when you said that the aggressor (3bet) must defend 24% to protect him from auto profit , are you just calculing this with standard formula Bet/Bet+Pot ? Or something more complicated that includes barrels frequency that protect x/f range too ?
I did the naive frequency (bet/(bet+pot)). It indeed can be more complicated. This spot however is generally close to this frequency.
Plugged the spot at 4:23 into PIO assuming a Snowie Preflop Strategy.
Proto's EV only drops $12 by using a 100% cbet strat for 1/3 pot. Would you try to use a mixed strategy in his shoes or go with the 100% strat for organizational/ simplification purposes?
IMAGE #1: GTO
IMAGE #2: Node locked 100% cbet for 1/3 pot!
Also, sometimes the simplified node locked sim actually comes out to a HIGHER EV than the GTO sim. Do you know what causes this? (Makes 0 sense)
I've noticed this effect as well on occasion. I think what's happening here is that the strategy space on the flop is very robust regarding betsize. To expand- we could build a strategy with most of the betting volume going to a variety of possible sizes without much EV penalty. I believe the algorithm can sometimes "struggle" to find the best possible size (because some combination of all the sizes is so close in EV), and it can take a very large number of iterations before the algo settles on the best size. It also might be the case that the algo settles on a strategy using multiple sizes that is very slightly worse than the best possible size, and it will never get to the best strat (for instance I've seen some cool stuff where if we nodelock a given situation then release the nodelock, the algo can't find its way back to GTO; to me this suggests the algo's ability to find GTO isn't perfect). If this is true, on occasion we can "see where the algo is going," and nodelock the best looking size and actually exceed Pio's EV by a very small amount (though again, I expect this might go away or be duplicated with a sufficiently large number of iterations).
PIO implements a form of gradient descent to calculate the Nash equilibriums. The method works like this.
Imagine we are standing on a hill-side covered in trees and we need to get to the nearest town. Towns are generally in a valley and near water. When we no longer can see our surroundings, one of the easy ways to get to the nearest town is to walk downhill. By walking down hill, we will eventually find the lowest point on our hillside and the stream babbling merrily down the hill. We can follow the stream, which flows downhill, until eventually we find a town. This method generally works, but sometimes we end walking down the wrong side of the mountain and the water either flows underground or into a freshwater lake with no exits. We would usually turn around and walk back up the hill. However gradient descent can only move downhill, so we become algorithmically stuck at this poor location.
Gradient descent is a process of walking downhill toward a local optimum (the town). However, sometimes we walk down the wrong side of the mountain and end up at suboptimal location that we can never get out because we can only walk downhill.
On your particular problem, it's more likely that you walked into the town from the left-side in your first sim and from the right-side of the town in your second. Remember that we never actually get to the exact center of town (Nash), we only get within the city limits.
Your understandig of equillibrium strategies is outstanding. I felt like I was exploring Pio sims just from hearing you talk. Amazing, well done
Really deep analyisis on every player strategies, great video Tyler!
Thanks Diego!
Bro, I've been binge watching your stuff! LOL
Awesome! Binge-away!
This is great stuff; you are a fantastic coach; a lot of coaches could learn from your efficiency and pacing
Thanks nogamble!
At 16:30 you say he could checkraise bluff AT of spades, but wouldn't that pretty much always be 3 bet preflop? Thanks for the content!
I was actually referring to Linus's calling range. ATs is near the cutoff for bet/calling here. :)
I rewatched and I caught that you said in LLinus' perspective shortly afterwards. Great vid. Thanks again!
Hi Tyler!!
Regarding to river bluffcacthing optimal frecuencies, I wonder what could be the best adjustments vs stations??? Could we just check back(ip) or XC (oop) some draws so our river range is stronger to punish that profile?
what is your overall adjutment vs people who are station?
txs
Loved this format when it was released. Wonder if we could see an encore with all the big money GG poker games going on lately?
I'll see what I can do. It might not be possible, because I'm in the U.S., but I think it'd be super interesting/valuable.
Hey Tyler, what a fantastic video,
Reading through the comments, I’m sure you would crush these games! You’re one of the best coaches in rio and I love your videos.
Haha and moving to Canada just to play on pokerstars such of a hassle in Ontario were fenced in from the rest of pokerstars global.
There are some cool live places to play though like Playground in Montreal is arguably one of the best poker rooms around, and Alberta has some good card rooms as well. Tournament winnings here also aren’t taxed in Canada like they are in the US so that’s a benefit, but as well our dollar is shit. Lolol
We looked hard at it, but decided we wanted to raise our children closer to our parents.
Makes a lot of sense!
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