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4 Table $50/$100 HU PLO Vs EireAbu (part 3)

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4 Table $50/$100 HU PLO Vs EireAbu (part 3)

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Phil Galfond

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4 Table $50/$100 HU PLO Vs EireAbu (part 3)

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Phil Galfond

POSTED Nov 18, 2013

Phil continues his match against EireAbu, who may be looking to gamble a little more following a brief break from the tables.

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Zachary Freeman 11 years, 5 months ago

12:00

2 Spots: AKKKhh Can you elaborate a little on why 4betting isn't good. SPR would be ~2 which make our hand easier to play while getting max in while ahead PF. Flatting still puts us in a tough spot with just an overpair yet a hand that we won't want to fold on many runouts (as played we probably folded a hand with >50% equity in a $1400 pot) . I'm not saying I think the flat call was bad instead that I thought it was close and it seems you didn't. I think I preferred the 4bet option.

TT24 on 93458hhh You said we arent repping any straights except maybe 67. Why do you feel that to be the case? Firstly, are you saying you would xc river if you had A2, or 26? Additionally if you apply your universal read that if people have enough to bet prior street and you xc and then they check when a FD arises they rarely have the FD, he should rarely have a FD. 

edit: you started 4betting much wider as the footage progressed, to the point you 4bet/6bet AQQ3hhh. Given he could be 4betting KKxx and that neither hand has great playability I am still thinking the AKKK hand was best to 4bet especially if AQQ3hhh 4bet is deemed as optimal. I also agree with your commentary that the fold on T56ss with BDSD BDFD and current best hand most often was too tight and was surprised you folded.




Phil Galfond 11 years, 5 months ago

Hey Zach,

I may be undervaluing AKKKhh.  I should probably run some equity calcs before commenting further.  I can't say I disagree based on anything other than intuition about how it plays, but I'm suspecting since it's a matter (almost purely) of hot & cold equity, there isn't much room for intuition :)

Let me get back to you on that.

On 94358hhh, I lean very closely towards checking with A2 and 26 (as I don't think he has much to call with that didn't bet the turn), but betting them isn't much different than betting with 76.  I more was saying that I believe people don't like to give me credit there for many non-flush VBs.

Zachary Freeman 11 years, 5 months ago

24:32 I haven't seen if you call river with QQ or not yet on T777 to avoid being results oriented. As PF 3btr IME I have called plenty of times in that spot and have NEVER seen a bluff. I think turn is close but river is a fold. Sure its a little exploitable to fold but until I see any evidence somebody is exploiting me in that spot I'm going to exploit them by not paying off. And as a little added bonus you can fold here from a range perspective given you have better than QQ often (KK, AA). 

Zachary Freeman 11 years, 5 months ago

39:30 QQ33 on K26cc I agree a cbet is probably best in vacuum and I think it is for range as well. Your 3bet range hits this flop plenty hard and we arent strong enough to be looking to induce. Yes he will float somewhat wide making turns tricky but given we have KK combos PF he prob shouldnt be calling with naked middle pair type hands. So FD combos are going to be most of his calls.

I disagree with your present Phil commentary yet agree with your past Phil play. I think its bet>xf>xc. I don't like xc because we dominate very little and our visibility is really bad. There is only 1 out we can confidently c/r turn with. All our other set outs either complete a flush or straight. Likewise when we miss we will have a hard to realizing our equity.


Phil Galfond 11 years, 5 months ago

Well, we can both agree that I should've bet :)

I still think I can call flop, just due to having more than enough equity in the pot.  I agree the situation isn't great, but I am pretty well protected on this board, with regards to my x/c range.  I don't think he can go crazy pushing me off of my hand.

Anyways, no strong disagreement here, as usual.

phil long 11 years, 5 months ago

Why do you think at 100bb KKxxds is a better 4bet than weak KKxx. I think that it is the other way round vs wide 3bet ranges. Vs a wide 3bet range KKxx has an equity edge and by just 4betting with the weaker ones you push that edge, and manage to make a lot less postflop mistakes like folding out equity. For example with the AKKKx in the video. The KKds hands whilst they also have more of an equity edge preflop, actually play better postflop to the point that in some spots whilst 4betting would of been fine calling becomes better. I think at infinite stack depths 4betting a hand like KK74 rainbow would be bad and worse than 4betting the good kings. But at even up to 100bb seems like it has to be the other way round?

Zachary Freeman 11 years, 5 months ago

I agree with much of what you wrote. Phil mentioned there's two arguments for which is better to 4bet so I don't think he disagrees necessarily. At 100bb 4bet/folding KKr can be right but prob not KK$ds which can make 4betting the KK74r more attractive given we gain information and value simultaneously, but vs this villain we aren't folding either to a 5bet. I add this because the times we 4bet KKr and run into a 5bet range we have more equity when behind which favors the KKds as a 4bet. 

At 28:00 I think Phil was concerned about getting a flop that KK(Q5) wasn't strong enough to go with even with low SPR whenvillain flats the 4bet. With KKds we will flop top set or a FD approx 38% of time which is a snap get in. While with KK(Q5) we flop set or FD only 25% of time and with slightly less connectivity than the KK59$ds we flop less straight draws as well.

Ultimately what I think happened is that Phil decided both were best as 4bets given that KK(Q5) ended up being just barely strong enough to 4bet, both to play post flop vs a flat or to likely sigh get in vs a 5bet. While the KKds was more of a slam dunk vs villain's ranges.

As I wrote above, I think AKKK should have been played the same way as the other KKxx later in footage given although we have trips we are beat half as often with our A blocker and we can also more comfortably react to a A-high flop which come ~23%. The downside of AKKK vs KK(q5) is that we only flop a set or FD 19% vs the 25% for KK(Q5) but AKKK was NFD which does help as well. All the prior statemtns are discussing playability. Do investigate hot and cold equity I simmed (AK)KK vs 33% range and vs 33%!AA range and KK(Q5) vs the same ranges. They both have nearly identical equities. 

End result, I think all of them should have been 4bets.


Daz 11 years, 5 months ago

Given how villain was 3betting hands as weak as JJ3xss, would all of the KKxx hands be snap 4betting then? including AKKK?

When you did take AKKK to the flop, having the backdoor flush draw too didn't sway your decision to float the flop?

Phil Galfond 11 years, 5 months ago

@Phil, I think deciding which is a better 4bet hand is an interesting discussion, and I'm not positive what the answer is (obviously it depends on villain a bit).  I said in the video that I wasn't sure which way of thinking was right.

@flush - ty for running the equities.  I think that AKKKhh at 56% equity is closer than you guys are thinking.  I push small-medium equity preflop (unless he 5bets, in which case I'm an equity dog for full stacks).  

What do you guys think about postflop playability advantage?  Do I have it or does he?  It's a rough way of looking at the problem, but I basically view it as:

-Preflop equity advantage
-Postflop playability advantage

And compare this to calling and using position, which I failed to do because I nitted it up on the flop :/

I suspect he has a playability advantage against AKKK, but I'm not 100% positive, since he'll rarely push us off of our equity.

I know he's 3betting JJ83 and other garbage hands, but like I said in the video, even if I don't punish him preflop, I still can take advantage of his (what I consider a) leak.

Heading to dinner, but I wanted to chime in quick.  Thanks for all the comments and questions!  I'll be back tonight/tomorrow.

babomor 11 years, 5 months ago

At 19:00 on the bottom right table, is it a mistake to check/call the AQ34?

I assume villain will always vbet lower flushes and check behind with 2pairs so that would mean the only way for hero to make money would be leading even without diamond blockers. And that would also allow us to lead some busted straight draws, as you mentioned.

Or is it the case that if we always lead AQxx and flushes our checking range on the river will be too weak? So vs a strong villain we will be blown off Axxx and weak 2pairs too often, so by checking AQxx we're protecting that part of our range.

What is the correct statement?



LazySummerDays 11 years, 5 months ago
Was thinking about the same thing. I'm curious about the criteria how do we decide what hands we lead for value and what hands we check-call with? Aren't 55xx and AQxx somewhat close in value in this spot? 55xx is a clear value bet and hands like AJ52 (or some A9xx) are check-call, no? So what's the breakdown for AQxx hands? With AQ3x (no diamond) I would've leaned towards check-call cause we block some of villain's bluffcatchers (=two pair hands). Hands like AQ[8,7,6] I would've leaned towards betting given that we block cards villain could've bluffed with.
Phil Galfond 11 years, 5 months ago

I am not very concerned about having my range attacked in this spot.

Firstly, anything worse than Axxx, I'll be bluffing with.  So we're basically talking about protecting exclusively Axxx.

Second, his range is capped when he checks back the turn, so not only can we x/r with Q high flushes for value, we can x/r bluff with Adxxx and occasionally some Axxx with Qd or Kd.

I will be check raising some flushes here, so I'm not leading 100% of improved hands. 

Sauce123 11 years, 5 months ago

Hey Phil,

I really liked your point on the AA3 board about SET frequency being lower at certain 3betting frequencies.  I checked it out a bit, and on the AA35 turn, it looks like SET+ frequency is maximized at around 30% if he's 3betting 11%, is at around 25% if he's 3betting between 17 and 25%, and is as low as 20% if he's 3betting 6%.  I'd never thought of that particular effect before, ty.


opn_mindet 11 years, 5 months ago

Quick question regards min 20 table 3 (bottom right), 3bet Pot on T77fd. You say given you have less trips then villain here you decide to go with a more passiv game plan right? I am wondering how you come up with that conclusion because i think you have  trips+ at least as often as villain, probably a tiny bit more ( i ran a sim with my own 15% range (to avoid using the PPT ranking) and stoved vs a 90%!aa range (to make it simple) and cam up with you having trips+ 18% vs him having trips+ 17%?

Zachary Freeman 11 years, 5 months ago

Can you post your sim? That sounds counter intuitive to me. Id also expect villains range to have more trips+. Phil will have less TT combos because he is only 3betting very strong side cards with that and villain should have nearly all 7xxx while Phil wont have near as many. I would be surprised if that resulted in the conclusion you state.

phil long 11 years, 5 months ago

regaarding postflop playability advantage i think that vs someone with a decently balanced 3bet range and good postflop frequencies on a lot of boards they end up having a playability edge because of how hard hands like say KKq4 rainbow become to play. And whilst you could argue that they have a playability advantage if you 4bet as you have a more faceup range. To some extent they do too and just the fact that once an spr reaches a certain inflexion point it doesnt matter how they play their ranges. The preflop equity advantage is too much to overcome. I guess the question is where is that inflexion point?


I think with the good kings you have the playability advantage, because your hand plays so much better there will be more times where they end up putting money in bad either by folding out equity incorrectly on turns or rivers, or by calling valuebets. I think that hands like good kings dominate parts of their 3bet range and whilst sometimes if you 4bet the money would of gone in either way or they will call and then fold ( a good result generally) i think with hands like this there will be more situations postflop with a higher spr where you put a lot of money in good. Whereas with hands like the weak KKxx, weak aaxx its hard to put in a lot of money in good apart from in spots where you are making big bluffcatches, which vs better players with decent ranges becomes hard to do.

roubo 11 years, 4 months ago

seeing his 3bet% and joining this to autocall to 4bet, I think that 4betting close to 100% of KKxx can't be a big mistake at all 100bb deep. Just think about how often u can

 1) cbet and win a really nice pot (regarding to stacks)

 2) cbet, call the shove and see that u're a favourite (not that strange if our opponent is 3bet/c JJ with rags).

Anyway, also if he's stacking off quite well against us because he's putting us exactly on AAxx or KKxx, I think that we're still showing a small profit by the times he's simply c/f a x% of his range OTF and gamble in the range of 40-60% equity. (if some math genius likes to make a sim... :p)

OFC, put the stacks up to 150bb deep and 4betting bad kings becomes way less sexy.

@Phil I see u calling a lot OOP, can I ask u why? It's pretty clear that Eire isn't the kind of guy easy to outplay OOP. Also if he's opening close to 100%, why don't u give up preflop with the bottom of your range (let's say, a bottom 40%?) 

About when u're IP: seeing his gigantic 3bet %, why don't u just decide to limp a chunk of hands? I'm talking about: "Ok I limp. U raise? I call. Cbet flop? I call. Now play deep stacks poker, mate."

Lex Kukkaruukku 11 years, 4 months ago

Hero loses less by defending wide oop than folding the bb preflop, given hero can play. Id like to hear as well when should we generate a btn limping range. I remember mr. Sulsky limping some vs isildurr1. Maybe he has some insight on this issue?

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