4 Table $2.5/$5 6-Max Zoom NLHE Session Review (part 1)

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4 Table $2.5/$5 6-Max Zoom NLHE Session Review (part 1)

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Raphael Cerpedes

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4 Table $2.5/$5 6-Max Zoom NLHE Session Review (part 1)

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Raphael Cerpedes

POSTED Jan 05, 2014

Raphael takes a look at a recent session that started out promising before going sour, hoping to figure out where and why things went poorly.

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1followu 11 years, 2 months ago

hi, very good video i think!

38:00

first: i think its better to cc with the a4 hand again cause he can barrel, make lower flush on river, etc and u have to fear no card in deck.

u say u balance it with draws if u cr turn here with nutmadehands.  but which flushdraws u have in ur range if u check call here oop, bd floating here with hand like kts seems not like a play anyone does. if ur in positon its clear that turn should get raised almost always i think but i dont think here. our perceived checkraise range on turn here is just too strong and especially out of history the opponents fold just everything to the turncheckraise probably and has no opportunity to bluff off or hit a pair or whatever on the river.

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

I agree that with this particular combo I should prolly x/c turn again, mostly because with the As in my hand he cannot have have all the NFD combos that are 2-barreling with and potentially even shoving over a x/r. Plus I can still x/r any river card while with a set I would have to just call on a flush river. 

Im not sure why you think this is a clear x/c oop but would be a clear raise ip, I dont get logic there and I would in general be a lot more prone to slowplay hands ip rather than oop.

I disagree that my "perceived checkraise range on turn here is just too strong" and I certainly will show up with quite alot of bluffs here too, be it draws or turning some weak made hands into bluffs (like A5 or 44 for example) actually later in the session there will be a similar spot where I x/c the flop with backdoor draws and x/r turn with a picked up straight draw on a 2-flush turn card and end up losing a big pot. I definitely disagree that opponents will fold everything, no regular is folding Qx+ or a flushdraw on that turn card. Yes I dont give him the opportunity to bluff the river but at the same time I make it a lot more difficult for him to go bet bet check with medium pairs or to semibluff very aggressively on the turn and I also put some money in before an A,4 or 6 rolls off and he checks back lots of 1 pair hands. I think I dont want to have a flop x/r range on that board given positions but I need one on the turn, I dont think never raising flop and turn can be a very good strategy.

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

Also I have no yet recorded the following parts of this series. In this video I didnt comment much on lots of small pots for the sake of going faster with the footage and seeing more hands. I dont know if thats what you people prefer or if you would rather see me comment more on each and every situation. So please tell me what you prefer to see, at this point I guess it will prolly take 3 more videos to review the entire session.

Koos 11 years, 2 months ago

I liked your pace and that you skipped over lots of small pots.  I also like that you sometimes stop to explain how you might change your strategy in some of the situations depending on opponent type or your opponent's bet sizing. I also enjoyed your more in depth discussion of the KQ versus 34 suited hand.

P.S.  I found the statistics you showed at the end of the video very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

HOTSANDWICH 11 years, 2 months ago

QQ at 50:40  Obv youre in a sot here that you didnt mean to put yourself in, but why shove the turn?  youre missing out on almost 100 bb when villian is bluffing and continues on river.. 

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

I miss 100bb when he decides to bluff the river, thats correct, but I protect my equity vs his 3 to 6 outers in a huge pot thats not negligible either. And Im not sure that am getting bluffed very often at all on blank rivers since it doesnt appear likely that i would x/c x/c x/f with much of anything on let say a 2 river, in my experience regs 2-barrels way too much there but give up quite a bit on the river so explotively it might make some sense to shove turn if im calling river anyways. I actually agree that x/c would be better against stronger opponents though and as I said shoving there was prolly influenced by me losing quite a few similar huge pots on unfortunate river cards lately.


Getready2rokk 11 years, 2 months ago

About the resolution on the 27" screen, its something if have encountered on OSX before so not too familiair with it on windows.

First you should check if your laptop supports the high resolution for an external screen first. (google laptop model specification list max resolution external screen). If this is supported you could try some software like powerstrip ( http://entechtaiwan.com/util/ps.shtm) that should be able to force the laptop to put this resolution on the 27".
Hope this helps!

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

The issue I have is not about displaying the resolution, it;s just that when I do it gets slightly blurred and not as sharp as it should be. By now several people told me to purchase a display cable so I guess thats what I need to do. Thanks for the input anyways.

xav1er 11 years, 2 months ago
This problem is because HDMI standards; resolution 2560×1600 is supported by HDMI 1.3 or higher. make sure your laptop's HDMI port is version 1.3 or higher and you have a proper HDMI cable that can supports HDMI 1.3 top resolution.

I've got similar problem with my 30" dell (2560×1600p) but I'm playing on PC (much more convenient way for playing poker for me), my graphic card has both HDMI and DisplayPort outputs - I'm using DisplayPort now and it works just fine, but I guess your laptop does not have a DisplayPort output. Thats why buyin this "display cable" wont work for you imho. You need to have DisplayPort output om your laptop and most laptops dont have these.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_comparison

You may also try this:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/2560x1440-or-2560x1600-via-HDMI.92840.0.html


Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

@xav1er: the monitor is 27" not 30" so the resolution is 2560x1440 not 1600, dunno if it makes any difference.  I didnt even know there were several different HDMI possible but I will look into it.

My laptop also has a display port output though, 100% sure. Thats why a friend of mine told me to get a display to mini display cable but I think Ill have to import it as I cant find it there. What would be the difference between an HDMI 1.3 or higher and a display cable?

Thanks for the advice!

xav1er 11 years, 2 months ago
If your laptop has DP, you just need to buy DisplayPort<->DisplayPort cable or DisplayPort<->MiniDisplayPort cable (don't know if your laptop has DP or miniDP - both possible). I'm using miniDP<->DP converter and then DP<->DP cable.

normal DP output looks like this (similar to HDMI but slightly different): http://www.startech.com/media/ProductPhotos/SV231DPDDUA_DisplayPort_Connector_Comparison.jpg

miniDP looks like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Mini_DisplayPort_on_Apple_MacBook.jpg

pretty sure that you can order these cables from amazon or ebay


Maestrrro 11 years, 2 months ago

Thanks for sharing the results Raphael. The 60k downswing at holdem that u mentioned, was this at 2/4 and 3/6? Just asking because I also play these stakes and loosing this much would crush my confidence I think;). 

KQo: Don t you think that once we decide it is profitable to call his 3 bet, after he 3 bet our utg range that we can call the river w TT plus? The value of TT in this spot is the same as the KQ...

QQ: I also think that jamming OTT is not a good option. Not many players will bluff turn in this spot, but if u think this villain is capable of fireing turn and river w air I think we do much better by calling turn and river. But yes, I agree that it sucks calling river when A or K rolls of. But if he has Kk he ll check back if A rolls and he ll also bluff with big frequency on an A, although he does not come to the river with a lot of combos that include Ax. Do you really think that many villains will barrel turn w for example AK? U say in your previous post that u expect many villains to bluff turn?

A4s: definitely prefer calling turn in this spot. This strategy you use will be hard to balance on this kind of boards. I would prefer your strategy on higher boards and wet like this one.  Nice video, looking forward to parts with more action.



Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

It was approximately 20k at 10/20 10k at 5/10 and 30k at 2/4 zoom500 and 3/6, plus 40k more at PLO. It sure is frustrating but it doesnt affect me all that much, and as you can see I already made all of it back.

I talked about this at length during the video, it's impossible to qualitatively decide where exactly is the threshold between calling and folding, you have to use maths if you want to solve it precisely. The value of TT is NOT the same as KQ though, having a K blocker is relevant and having 2 cards that could be included in a lot of his 3-barreling bluffrange is also somewhat relevant. Plus some low percentage of the time he will be shoving a hand between KQ and TT. So its 100% sure that calling this river with KQ is significantly higher EV than calling with TT.

I agree that x/c is prolly better than x/r but I disagree that " Not many players will bluff turn in this spot". In my experience at those stakes in 4-bet pots many regs 2-barrel bluff waaaay too much, especially in blinds vs BTN or CO situations, but dont follow up with a river shove very often at all. So exploitively shoving turn might be a pretty good option too, or at least its not much worse than x/c. Yes he will bluff Ax 100% of the times if he has air on the river but I still cant call that card, Im too far behind his range.

Why do you think "This strategy you use will be hard to balance on this kind of boards"? please elaborate. Basically I just get rid og the x/r flop range on a low rainbow board with those positions and implement instead a  x/c x/r range when the turn card brings a FD. I still have a x/c x/c x/r range though. I dont really understand why several posters in the thread seem to think we can x/r flop with a lot of bluffs in this spot but not on the turn. It doesnt make any sense to me.



Bhtopspin 11 years, 2 months ago

KQo spot vs 34s is very interesting. I would fold preflop to a 3b since this hand, particularly offsuit one is just such a trouble in this sort of spot. Unless we know that our opponent range is wide in this case and he tends to barrel off often. Without that specific info, i think it is better to eliminate these spots? I don't think how it is going to be exploitative since we have so many stronger hands in our range in that spot. 

As far as river call, I think it is close and once again, I leaned toward folding. We have a lot of AK in that spot that we would play same way and call river. I may be very wrong on this. 

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

The small preflop 3-bet size is what makes me call here as stated in the video, I would def fold to 11bb and most probably to 10bb but once it gets 9bb and under I think I can call. Probably to an 8bb 3-bet or less there would not be any hand in my UTG opening range that would fold here. Also that opponent is pretty wide in most preflop situations. I actually disagree that we want our opponent to barrel a lot after 3-betting in order to defend more hands, quite the opposite imo, it's easier to defend wider to 3-bets if you know you will get lots of free cards, cheap showdowns and opportunities to steal pots.

I dont think river is close at all, I think it's a mandatory call. Sure Ill get there with some AK,99 and 33 but if I fold KQ it means I go call call fold with all KQ, KJs,KTs,QQ,JJ,TT,T9s,98s,QJdd,JTdd,AQdd...  which are a lot more combos than my calling combos, having  "a lot of AK in that spot that we would play same way and call river" wont compensate for that. Basically his river jam would become super profitable which we certainly dont want to allow on a complete brick. So I dont know how far down in my range I need to calldown but KQ has to be a call there.


yoren 11 years, 2 months ago
***Made edits to preflop call 3-bet range according to raphael's response below (i.e. excluded AA/KK/A8s/A9s) and counted AQdd as a potential bluffcatching combo***

Sounds like you're flatting close to your whole opening range, call it 75% AK/QQ, 33-JJ/AQ/AJ/KQ/suited broadway/T9s/98s

---

Flop Kd 9c 3s, we have 133.5 combos

The breakdown is as follows:

set: 6
top pair: 27
pp below tp: 16.5
middle pair: 6
weak pair: 30
ace high: 36
gutshot: 12

-If we call with 9x or better + gutters + AQ w/ bdfd, that's 70.5 combos or 52.8%.

-If we aim to prevent our opponent from profiting with a 0 equity hand, we should be defending at least 85.5/133.5 combos or 64%.

Q: Please discuss why or why not defending less than 85.5 combos would be a strategic hole.

---

Turn: Kd 9c 3s, 5d

The breakdown of our 70.5 combos:

set: 6
top pair: 27
pp below tp: 16.5
middle pair: 6
ace high: 3
flushdraw: 6
gutshot: 12

(note that some hands fit in two categories so if you sum up the categories, it will exceed 70.5)

-If we defend with the turn calling range Raphael provided in the paragraph above, mid pair or better + fds, that's 59.5 combos or 84.4%, making our opponent's pure bluffs very unprofitable.

-If we aim to prevent our opponent from profiting with a 0 equity hand, we should be defending at least 46/70.5 combos or 65%. A range of 46 combos is sets, all kings in our range, QQ, 40%JJ, any turned fds.

Q: If we defend well over the minimum defense frequency, what does that say about what we think about our opponent's frequencies, his range, and his range relative to our range on this board? What other pertinent factors should we consider when deviating from the minimum defense frequency?

---

First let's consider calling with Raphael's suggested turn range.

River: Kd 9c 3s 5d, 5c

The breakdown of our 59.5 combos:

full house: 6
top pair: 27
pp below tp: 16.5
middle pair: 6
ace high: 1
no made hand: 3

-I'm going to discard the 3 of missed QJdd/QTdd/TJdd (edited to keep AQdd). It's a bit unappealing to call with the AQdd b/c our opponent is occasionally bluffing with better. And it'd be awful to call with Q-hi here as A-hi or better represents a fair chunk of our opponent's bluffing range. This leaves 56.5 combos.

-If we aim to prevent our opponent from profiting with his bluffs, we need to defend 52.1% of our bluffcatchers, 29.5 combos. That means we need to call with KJs or better.

---

To contrast Raphael's suggested turn strategy, let's instead choose to defend turn with all kings in our range, QQ, 40%JJ, any turned fds, or ~46 combos

River: Kd 9c 3s 5d, 5c

Breakdown:

full house: 6
top pair: 27
pp below tp: 6.9
middle pair: 2
ace high: 1
no made hand: 3

-Discard missed non A-hi fds, leaving 43 combos

-If we aim to prevent our opponent from profiting with his bluffs, we need to defend 52.1% of our bluffcatchers, 22.5 combos. That means we need to call with 2/3 of our KQ combos and everything better.

---

Effects of edit: Notice that the breakeven calldown hand is at about the same place. We removed about ~3 combos of AA/KK from the top of our range, but we also removed 3 combos of A9s, a hand that was in the bottom half of our river range.



Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

Alright, thanks for posting this work, I dont have all the answers and I did not verify the % you're giving but let me comment some of your points.

First, preflop, against that particular opponent I feel like I will be 4-betting AA and KK basically 100% of the time so it means I will need to calldown some weaker bluffcatchers than what you suggest on later streets. I also fold A9s and A8s to this 3-bet (or maybe 4-bet them every once in a while), I realise that it might not be very consistent to call KQo and KTs but fold A9s.

Then on the flop, it is possible I do not defend enough and I need to call more AJs and 88 type stuff but defending less than the "minimum defense frequency" is probably not that big of an issue there, as the board is quite favorable to him. He took a risk by 3-betting preflop with very little fold equity so it's OK to let him profitably bet ATC on certain boards. Then again, I really dont know what the optimal calling frequency should be in that spot.

On the turn, I think it is definitely correct to defend quite a bit over the 'minimum defense frequency" when my strategy is to either call or fold but never raise (that may very well be wrong and I need a raising range). Thats because his bluffs will very rarely have 0% equity, many times he will be betting with a FD or a gutshot or stuff like AJ that can still make a pair to beat my 9x/TT type of hands.

On the river, I'm almost certain that your math is slightly wrong and you cannot "discard" A hi and Q hi combos (am never calling with them but it doesnt matter). Thats where you can see more precisely how many combos you should defend, apparently about 52% of my overall range that got there (admittedly I didnt check your numbers), and NOT of my overall bluffcatchers range. When you discard the A hi and Q hi hands you actually allow him to profitably bluffshove ATC there. I think you are confused with theoretical situations/toy games where a polarized range (nuts;air) is facing a pure bluffcatchers range.


yoren 11 years, 2 months ago
I drew that idea to 'discard' certain hands when defining our bluffcatching range by looking at the equilibrium solution to Von Neumann's poker model. I reference it b/c I am not entirely certain, so I'll share the origin of the thought.

---

Two players, A and B, each have a random hand of value 'x' drawn from a uniform distribution on the interval [0,1]. (Note that 0 is the weakest hand and 1 is the strongest hand.) The pot has $1.

Player A can either bet $1 or check. If Player A bets, Player B can only call or fold. If Player A checks, they immediately go to showdown.

The equilibrium solution is as follows:

Player A's strategy: Bet if x >= 7/9 or x <= 1/9, check everything else.
Player B's strategy: When A bets, call if x >= 5/9.

Notice certain properties of this solution that are consistent with sound poker play.
->'A' bets his top 2/9th hands and his worst 1/9th hands. (Player A has proportioned his value hands to bluffs according to the price he's laying B)
->The worst hand 'A' value bets is a hand of value 7/9. 'B' is calling with hands of value 5/9 and better. (The worst hand 'A' value bets is putting in money on a 50% edge when called.)
->'B' calls with 50% of his bluffcatchers such that 'A' is breaking even with his worst bluffing hand. Notice that 'B' is not calling his top 50%, he's calling with his top 4/9ths (44.4%). He is calling with 50% of the range of hands that is stronger than the top of Player A's bluffing range (the top of A's bluffing range has value 1/9). Also note that our opponent's best bluffing hand (when he holds a hand with value 0) is profiting in equilibrium, not breaking even.

Certainly there are many differences between a model and practice, but I think the properties of the eqm. solution strongly suggest that you should not count certain hands in your range when attempting to make your opponent breakeven on his bluffs. Namely you should not count hands that can't even beat his bluffs.

In this hand, it is unclear where the line should be drawn. Our opponent did have the near nut hand to bluff with, 34dd, which is a pair. So does that mean we should define our bluffcatching range as hands that can beat a pair of 3s? Well our opponent shows up with that hand pretty rarely, I would think he shows up with AQdd (or any other Axdd combo) way more often than 34dd. Really, I don't know how AQdd would fare against his optimal bluffing range. Our opponent's optimal bluffing range probably does not contain very many paired hands, so maybe we can't discard AQdd. But I do think it's pretty clear that QJdd/QTdd/JTdd should be discarded (if not wholly, then partially) because they have very poor equity vs our opponent's bluffing range.




Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

I assume you are talking about the "theory of games and economic behavior" by Von Neumann and Morgenstern, right? I have not read/studied this work but I remember reading something very similar in the Chen and Ankenman volume a while ago, I will re-check this when I have some time. At first glance it sounds strange though that we let him profit with hist worst bluffing hands since it looks like he could unilaterally increase his EV by bluffing more hands.

yoren 11 years, 2 months ago
It is very likely that that is where it comes from. I was exposed to the problem on 2p2 when a few regulars started talking about it in some thread. I do believe the toy game is solved in Chen and Ankenman's book. I never got around to finishing the entire thing.

Player A cannot unilaterally increase his EV because he's already used up his best bluffing hands. He bluffs if his hand value x <= 1/9. Notice that when he bluffs with a hand of value 1/9, the top of his bluffing range, he breaks even.

I'd say the most relevant difference between your hand and the toy game is that in your hand the aggressor is OOP.

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

Alright I think I got it. One of the problem I see with applying this to this hand is that opponent's range is not linearly distributed from 0 to 1, he almost never have the portion between let say 0.4 and 0.8 (very rough estimate) as I dont expect very many people to go bet bet on flop and turn with 9x or JJ for example. And more importantly I missed the "If Player A checks, they immediately go to showdown" part of your previous post and that makes all the difference since here I still have the ability to both value shove and bluffshove when you check the river.  So it makes a big difference with the toy game since there when you check back a lot of hands not strong enough to value bet you still get some share of the pot because the opponent's range is anything between 0 and 1. But here when you check something that cannot beat at least 98 you will lose the pot 100% because being in position I will bluff any combo weaker than that or check back and win the showdown.

I think the inability for the defender to bet when the agressor checks is also the reason why in the toy game bluffing the very worst hands is still slightly +EV too. Checking back something as weak as let say 0.08 would still be very slightly +EV since oop would sometimes hold something between 0 and 0.08.

So overall it means you cannot discard any hands in my range that gets to the river before trying to implement the right calling frequency.


BIGfloppa 11 years, 2 months ago

Really liked your analysis of the KQo hand.  With regard to preflop: if we are continuing the vast majority of our opening range to a 9bb 3bet, what are your thoughts on using this hand to 4bet/fold?

Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

4-betting, at least once in a while, is an option too but you have to be careful with your frequencies. Given that your 4-bet for value range should be very narrow in the first place if you start 4-betting all AJo,KQo, some other random stuff and a few Axs here and there you will quickly end up 4-bet bluffing way too much.

yoren 11 years, 2 months ago

Halfway through, Raphael. You speak with a good measure of humility in your videos. Solid video thus far. Very thorough analysis in the KQ vs 34dd hand.

yoren 11 years, 2 months ago

33:50, J9cc in top left, you don't have a single worse unpaired hand in your range. Seems like you should be bluffing here or you risk having an empty bluffing range.

38:45, K9ss in bottom left, what do you think your flop checking range is? Please be specific. I know this is a pain in the ass question. Constructing ranges in these spots tends to be tough imo, but that also means there's a lot to be gained since it comes up so often. It's pretty clear we should bet with 87 or J9dd imo. But it's less clear when we have this hand, K9ss, or some other hand such as A8o, 44, or KQ. Do we bet or check those hands? I think there are ppl in both camps and the oft cited defense is it depends who your opponent is (or dynamics). But if you were on the btn and playing vs a clone of yourself in the bb, you should be able to specify your flop strategy with each holding, no? Edit: A bit dumb to talk about a clone when I could just suppose your opponent is a strong player who will defend well vs your flop strategy.

39:50, 9To in top right, how many $ do you think you're losing by overcalling flop? How many $ do you think is added to your EV if you have 9Thh (relative to EV if you c/c 9To)?




Raphael Cerpedes 11 years, 2 months ago

J9cc, you are right I should bluff this combo at some point in the hand.

K9ss, yes in theory we should be able to specify our flop strategy with each holding but in practice I expect very people at midstakes to have a strong mapped out strategy there, and I am no exception. Lately I have been mostly c-betting smallish with full range in that situation BTN vs BB, which is almost certainly incorrect but works surprisingly well in practice. Other times I will be checking back some A hi, K hi along with weaker holdings that will possibly try to bluff later and the occasional slowplay. This is most probably a better strategy but just betting everything and not worrying about it is much easier to implement when your opponents let you get away with it. As for specific hands that you are giving, I feel like 44 has to be a mandatory bet. I agree K hi and weak A hi are a lot more questionable. 

T9o, I have no idea how much $ Im losing overcalling there, and its a very infrequent spot with a limp a SB completion and a BB check. I think having a backdoor FD is probably significant enough to switch from folding to overcalling, but even so I feel like overcalling T9hh would be marginal and slightly +EV at best. That is just my gut feeling though, I have never tried to model and quantify this situation.

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